jbuntz
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:35 pm

My electrical engineer friend tells me you also have to consider the "Power Factor" of the Charger, since my cheap meter only shows the apparent draw and not the actual usage.
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
30 Apr 2017 5175 mi 324 GID Ahr 70.75 SOH 89% Hx 85.31% kWh 25.1
11 Aug 2017 11 bar 9245 mi 282 GID Ahr 61.68 SOH 77% Hx 75.83% kWh 21.9
21 Oct 2017 10 bars 12000 mi 260 GID Ahr 57.22 SOH 71% Hx 70.58% kWh 20.2

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12239
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:39 pm

jbuntz wrote:My electrical engineer friend tells me you also have to consider the "Power Factor" of the Charger, since my cheap meter only shows the apparent draw and not the actual usage.


residential power is for all practical purposes 1 to 1. what is your GID setting on LEAF Spy? now what it "should" be is apparently debatable but mine is set to 77.5 watthours and I have 28.1 kwh available. but again, putting it in the battery is only part of the story. you also generate heat when you take it out along with a base load
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jbuntz
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 pm

My GID setting is at 80. Also since my ammeter is only measuring one lead then it doesn't measure the power returning on the other leg (Or something like that. I am not an EE :))
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
30 Apr 2017 5175 mi 324 GID Ahr 70.75 SOH 89% Hx 85.31% kWh 25.1
11 Aug 2017 11 bar 9245 mi 282 GID Ahr 61.68 SOH 77% Hx 75.83% kWh 21.9
21 Oct 2017 10 bars 12000 mi 260 GID Ahr 57.22 SOH 71% Hx 70.58% kWh 20.2

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12239
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:58 pm

jbuntz wrote:My GID setting is at 80.


that is too high. I set mine to 80 and got 29 kwh available which is not really possible
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1460
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:28 pm

80 is the value listed in the 2011 service manual, but I have not checked the later manuals. The LEAF onboard chargers operate at essentially 1.0 power factor. I have checked both 3.3 kW in 2011 and 6 kW in 2015 on 120, 208, and 240 volts nominal and was surprised how close they run to unity PF. L2 charging efficiency using the same 30-ampere EVSE is noticeably higher with the 6 kW onboard charger in the 2015 compared to the 3.3 kW unit in the 2011 due to reduced charging time (reduced overhead losses).

Gerry
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12239
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:41 pm

GerryAZ wrote:80 is the value listed in the 2011 service manual, but I have not checked the later manuals. The LEAF onboard chargers operate at essentially 1.0 power factor. I have checked both 3.3 kW in 2011 and 6 kW in 2015 on 120, 208, and 240 volts nominal and was surprised how close they run to unity PF. L2 charging efficiency using the same 30-ampere EVSE is noticeably higher with the 6 kW onboard charger in the 2015 compared to the 3.3 kW unit in the 2011 due to reduced charging time (reduced overhead losses).

Gerry


Nissan acknowledging the GID is news to me... Either way, it does not change the fact that LEAF Spy shows 29.0 kwh available with GID=80 but only 28.1 when GID=77.5
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1460
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:04 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
GerryAZ wrote:80 is the value listed in the 2011 service manual, but I have not checked the later manuals. The LEAF onboard chargers operate at essentially 1.0 power factor. I have checked both 3.3 kW in 2011 and 6 kW in 2015 on 120, 208, and 240 volts nominal and was surprised how close they run to unity PF. L2 charging efficiency using the same 30-ampere EVSE is noticeably higher with the 6 kW onboard charger in the 2015 compared to the 3.3 kW unit in the 2011 due to reduced charging time (reduced overhead losses).

Gerry


Nissan acknowledging the GID is news to me... Either way, it does not change the fact that LEAF Spy shows 29.0 kwh available with GID=80 but only 28.1 when GID=77.5


Dave,
I apologize--I could not find a direct reference to 80 Wh per count for the number representing stored watt-hours that we on the forum call GIDs. There are old threads where this is discussed and 80 Wh for each count is presented as a Nissan value. Dividing the stored energy in the battery at low battery warning stated in the service manual by the number of GIDs consistently displayed at LBW yields a number very close to 80 Wh. Obviously, Nissan does not acknowledge the term GID because that is a term created on the forum.

Gerry
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12239
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:56 am

GerryAZ wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
GerryAZ wrote:80 is the value listed in the 2011 service manual, but I have not checked the later manuals. The LEAF onboard chargers operate at essentially 1.0 power factor. I have checked both 3.3 kW in 2011 and 6 kW in 2015 on 120, 208, and 240 volts nominal and was surprised how close they run to unity PF. L2 charging efficiency using the same 30-ampere EVSE is noticeably higher with the 6 kW onboard charger in the 2015 compared to the 3.3 kW unit in the 2011 due to reduced charging time (reduced overhead losses).

Gerry


Nissan acknowledging the GID is news to me... Either way, it does not change the fact that LEAF Spy shows 29.0 kwh available with GID=80 but only 28.1 when GID=77.5


Dave,
I apologize--I could not find a direct reference to 80 Wh per count for the number representing stored watt-hours that we on the forum call GIDs. There are old threads where this is discussed and 80 Wh for each count is presented as a Nissan value. Dividing the stored energy in the battery at low battery warning stated in the service manual by the number of GIDs consistently displayed at LBW yields a number very close to 80 Wh. Obviously, Nissan does not acknowledge the term GID because that is a term created on the forum.

Gerry


Well I was here for all that and never saw any kind of acknowledgment from Nissan concerning the figure but it would have been easy to miss, especially here.

Now, Gary Giddings and others when they initially collected the data and the "GIDmeter" was developed, the GID was assigned a value of 80 watt hours but as time went on, it became obvious that number didn't work in all cases and I have no recollections of the details nor did I participate in the discussions. I "think" part of the reason for the number was based on a 24.0 kwh pack capacity.

Later, LEAF Spy arrived and originally started at 80 watt hours and due to the extra level of data supplied by LEAF Spy, several determined 77.5 watt hours to be a more applicable number. This is also when we started to notice pack capacity was drifting upwards.

As far as who got what, when and whatever? I don't care. The variety of readings collected from day to day (yes, I record LEAF Spy readings EVERY day) tells me it doesn't really matter what the numbers say as long as the relationship between the numbers stay the same. So here goes

GID=80, kwh remaining = 29.0
GID=77.5, kwh=28.1
GID = 75, kwh = 27.2

As you can see, for me to get as low as some people have recorded I would have to have a radical change in the relationship used within LEAF Spy. So therefore, I will stay at what I have been using for the last 5 years which is 77.5

For reference;

2011 LEAF measured 281 peak GIDs using GIDmeter. (LEAF Spy use started month 28 of 35 month lease)
2013 measured 284 GIDs, 22.7 kwh, 67.36 ahr
2016 S30; 363 GIDs, 28.1 kwh, 82.34 ahr
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gregn
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:29 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Apr 2016
Leaf Number: 308289
Location: Montpelier, VT

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:20 pm

Hello all,
In reference to the Gid setting in LeafSpy.
I haven't touched that. Mine defaulted to 77.5
If this relates I get 27 kWh at full charge. Might be a decimal there but I am not at the car now so am estimating.
I do notice that if I uses LeafSpy Miles/ kWh and enter that in the Distance to LBW gauge it hits o within a few seconds of the car actually triggering LBW.
Would I be correct in assuming the the 77.5 number is accurate then? I would think it would have to be if the Distance to LBW tracks with the car.

Leaf Spy is quite handy on the cold days we have had when I decided to see if I could get to work and back (65 miles RT) in Vermont. on a single charge. It does but usually hits LBW just as I get home or if I was going faster and running heat more several miles before home. This is a 2016 SV w/ the 30kWh battery by the way. It really depends on the battery temp I am finding. 3 temp bars in the morning and it's a stretch to get there and back. 4 temp bars and theres no problem.
I have two road choice. One an Interstate and one a state road. 65 vs 50 for speed limits. 600' climb gradual over the duration of the return.

I have looked at the Dist. to LBW reading a couple of times and decided to hit the nearest DC charge before heading home and have been glad i did.

More on topic, My batter reads 97% health which is up from the 95% when I got the car in April and up from the lowest I have read mid summer. It went up on a day I took the car to Boston and back from Montpelier, VT and 6 DC charges in the same day. Some were 30 min and most were more than 20 min. The battery temp got to the second to highest bar on the last charge. Cooled down a couple on the drive. It was fall and a cool evening. When I got home I noticed the Health was higher than I had ever seen it and has stayed there for a couple of months now.

It seems that charging and using isn't that bad for the battery. Especially if it isn't baking hot out.
Form these observations I have decided to just drive the car as I need to and charge as I need to within reason. I will avoid letting the car sit at a high charge and avoid a DC charge if it's baking hot. I don't do many long trips. Where I am a 10 min DC session will usually get me what I need. Now in the cold I charge at home on L1 (I'm in an apartment so that's all I can have) Charge at work on L1 as well. I can then run the interstate @ 65 with the heat on auto set to 70º and make it fine. I don't need 100% charges to do that so the battery will run in a mid range window with a once a week balance charge to 100%.
If i get a bad battery that fails before the warranty I'll deal with that. If it fails after I guess that's the luck. If I get 5-7 years of usable range I'll be quite happy. I will have clocked up quite a few miles if that happens. I'm at 15k in 10 months so will likely be close to 20 in a year. I'll be over 100k in 5 years. We will see if the battery degrades more with time or cycles.

I do pull LeafSpy data once in a while so I will have some records.
2016 Leaf SV Pearl Blue
67 mile daily commute
Bat Stats@15%SOC: AHr=78.23 SOH=98% Hx=93.13% Balance Delta = 15mv
odo=16,820

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12239
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 30kwh battery, warranty and capacity bar questions I cannot find elsewhere....

Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:57 pm

gregn wrote:Hello all,
In reference to the Gid setting in LeafSpy.
I haven't touched that. Mine defaulted to 77.5
If this relates I get 27 kWh at full charge. Might be a decimal there but I am not at the car now so am estimating.
I do notice that if I uses LeafSpy Miles/ kWh and enter that in the Distance to LBW gauge it hits o within a few seconds of the car actually triggering LBW.
Would I be correct in assuming the the 77.5 number is accurate then? I would think it would have to be if the Distance to LBW tracks with the car.

Leaf Spy is quite handy on the cold days we have had when I decided to see if I could get to work and back (65 miles RT) in Vermont. on a single charge. It does but usually hits LBW just as I get home or if I was going faster and running heat more several miles before home. This is a 2016 SV w/ the 30kWh battery by the way. It really depends on the battery temp I am finding. 3 temp bars in the morning and it's a stretch to get there and back. 4 temp bars and theres no problem.
I have two road choice. One an Interstate and one a state road. 65 vs 50 for speed limits. 600' climb gradual over the duration of the return.

I have looked at the Dist. to LBW reading a couple of times and decided to hit the nearest DC charge before heading home and have been glad i did.

More on topic, My batter reads 97% health which is up from the 95% when I got the car in April and up from the lowest I have read mid summer. It went up on a day I took the car to Boston and back from Montpelier, VT and 6 DC charges in the same day. Some were 30 min and most were more than 20 min. The battery temp got to the second to highest bar on the last charge. Cooled down a couple on the drive. It was fall and a cool evening. When I got home I noticed the Health was higher than I had ever seen it and has stayed there for a couple of months now.

It seems that charging and using isn't that bad for the battery. Especially if it isn't baking hot out.
Form these observations I have decided to just drive the car as I need to and charge as I need to within reason. I will avoid letting the car sit at a high charge and avoid a DC charge if it's baking hot. I don't do many long trips. Where I am a 10 min DC session will usually get me what I need. Now in the cold I charge at home on L1 (I'm in an apartment so that's all I can have) Charge at work on L1 as well. I can then run the interstate @ 65 with the heat on auto set to 70º and make it fine. I don't need 100% charges to do that so the battery will run in a mid range window with a once a week balance charge to 100%.
If i get a bad battery that fails before the warranty I'll deal with that. If it fails after I guess that's the luck. If I get 5-7 years of usable range I'll be quite happy. I will have clocked up quite a few miles if that happens. I'm at 15k in 10 months so will likely be close to 20 in a year. I'll be over 100k in 5 years. We will see if the battery degrades more with time or cycles.

I do pull LeafSpy data once in a while so I will have some records.


LEAF Spy should be used as a guideline and that guideline is something that needs to be monitored regularly to see how well its able to predict your range. That is why you want to adjust that "miles per kwh" reading where it gives you the estimated distance and that should be adjusted seasonally.

as far as numbers going up after fast charges? that is normal and that is all I have to say about that.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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