Is MyNissanLeaf Helping or Hurting Nissan and EV Adoption?

Reader Warning: This is a philosophical post. If you are not interested, don't read it.

I am raising this topic hoping to stimulate discussion about the impact of this forum. For me, MNL has been an extremely valuable source of information. It is great to have dealer participation (Thanks Brendan (Boardwalk) and Leon (Mossy) and The Center for Sustainable Energy (for CVRP in CA) to provide us information. As an early adoptor, my goal is to help make the LEAF a success story by providing feedback to fix/iron out any issues/bumps along the way and to promote wide spread general (not to just environmentally conscience) adoption of EV's.

It is pretty clear that the influence of MNL has grown to be substantial, so I began to think about my experience on this forum since joining many months ago. One thing I note is that this has put Nissan under a magnifying glass, alowing me to see things I have never before seen in a consumer product rollout. This is good because it finds and identifies the problems and you have to know what they are before you can fix them. But it also tends to highlight the problems and diminishs the positive things.

So if Ms./Mr. Joe Average thinks "Maybe I should look into this electric car thing I am hearing about." and goes to MNL to get some insite and information, what will they see and what message will they walk away with regarding the LEAF and EV's in general? This raises a challenge: how do you raise issues/problems/concerns while not negatively impacting the goal of making LEAF's and EV's successful?

Second thing I would note (and I will probably get it for this) is a lot of feeling of entitlement. What do we deserve? As first owners what we should get? Nissan owes us.... I want benefits as much as anyone and there are legitamite requests/concerns. But if what we "want" overshadows what we want to achieve, we may loose sight of what really matters.

So, as we continue to participate here, remember: "With power comes responsibility"

Long4Leaf said:

So if Ms./Mr. Joe Average thinks "Maybe I should look into this electric car thing I am hearing about." and goes to MNL to get some insite and information, what will they see and what message will they walk away with regarding the LEAF and EV's in general? This raises a challenge: how do you raise issues/problems/concerns while not negatively impacting the goal of making LEAF's and EV's successful?

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These forums are going to exist.. The question is for the manufacturer.. They can either be involved or hide.. By being involved and having a representative, they can dispell rumors and speculations before it gets to 40 pages long. 10 years ago, when forums were just gaining tracking, I was a founding member of the Nissan Xterra Club.. At first, Nissan didn't know what to do with it, they just ignored it. A member created a Gathering of Xterras in Colorado.. Nissan sent a kid marketing guy to check it out.. He went back and said "We need to get involved.. We need to be there".. They even created a nationwide commercial with Xterra Enthusiasts..That was 10 years ago and it worked.. I don't know why Nissan isn't here. The success of the Xterra forums and Z forums and of Lurkers in Travel forums that can stop things before they get out of control is just too great to ignore.

You can't blame the masses here for reporting what they see and hear and making up rumors and speculation.. Its going to happen.. What you can do is have someone here that can stop it before it goes viral.

A definite positive in terms of slaking the thirst for knowledge that the enthusiast's have. No effect, really, on the average purchaser who would not be willing to slog through the myriad of posts here, anyway. Slightly negative from Nissan's POV...they would obviously find it easier to operate without so much scrutiny, but I actually think it's good for them since several issues have come to light here.

From Nissan POV - they would rather only see +ve things here. But then the forum would have little credibility.

Ofcourse, we have saved them a bunch of support calls. :lol:

The forum is not the issue its some of the uninformed speculation, rumors and guessing by members. Things like the Prius has 80Kw of regen and more than the LEAF, "someone stole my car order", the AC needs less pressure, etc. It would be better if people researched their facts and stopped speculating and also if Nissan CS would stop spreading as much false info as some posters here. I watch misinformation get posted here every few minutes and watch it turn into facts in the forum phone mill. There are also non-tech people giving tech advise and plenty of paranoia to boot. Take it all with a grain of salt, many forums are like that and Nissan is smart to stay away and only observe at best.

If we can't/shouldn't guess or speculate, then what is there to talk about? But I do think you're right that too many people either: a) don't qualify their statements as guessing; or b) misconstrue a guess as fact. I, for one, always take everything here with a grain of salt. It may provide some insight or tidbit that steers you in the right direction, but you always have to use your own brain in the end...

Perhaps it would help if posters would start making more liberal use of phrases like: "I think", "I guess", "I bet", "maybe", "possibly", "probably", etc. And, dear readers, when you see such phrases, DO NOT take them as gospel. Use your head...

Also, since body language, facial expressions and tone of voice are lost in a forum, sometimes things get interpreted differently than you intended. PLEASE make generous use of the emoticons, they're not there just to be cute.

Hey!! i corrected my statement.

but anyway, all i can say is anyone who believes everything they read on the internet does not deserve a Leaf!

but there is no way that anyone who actually spends some time to put in the effort to really learn about the car will deny the usefulness of this site

Agreed, on both accounts!

As a person with a non technical background (I am a registered nurse), I have found this forum very helpful but it is not for the faint hearted (sheer number of postings). There is lots to wade through. I have been fascinated by observing how postings coalesce around a particular issue then thoughts are posted back and forth and gradually....sometimes very gradually...I can usually discern what would be the best decision and the best way for me to proceed on a particular issue. Watching this process unfold on a number of issues has helped me greatly in my dealings with Nissan, with the dealer, with my friends/family about the LEAF, with the EV Project, with other LEAF orderers and owners, and on and on. I have much much more confidence with the prospect of owning this car and if I have not said it before...I am very grateful for the help. It is also a very interesting phenomenon that this on line forum has led to many in person meet ups. People really do like to see each other in person, too!

I can unequivocally say that this forum has PRESERVED my order.

If it were not for the camaraderie (we're all hosed together) and information to fill the COMPLETE VAPID SILENCE coming from Nissan, I would have canceled my LEAF order long ago.

Somewhere around January I would have said.. "Nissan isn't serious about this EV thing, and they're jerking me around; I'm buying something else instead", got my $99 back and gone on my merry way. I'd have a few thousand miles on an M3 Convertible instead..

Now that I put it that way, I'm starting to wonder if MNL is Helping or Hurting ME..

i agree on

1) long posts are Hell to wade thru and maybe a threaded option might work better.

2) the camaraderie here has been awesome. may it be commiseration on the seemingly endless wait for the information, the details and finally the car, etc. the company of people who are like-minded has been invaluable to me.

the sharing of ideas, information, etc. has benefited me waaay beyond what i could have accomplished on my own (i most likely would not have thought of most of what i learned here...*glances at modified charging cable*)

having been at Priuschat since nearly the beginning, that site started out the same way. at first it was nearly all technical and speculation as most of us did not have one yet. but then as the site popularity grew so did the type of people who contributed. sure there were some lemons, some spammers and others who were just downright antagonists.

but you take the good with the bad. that is just how life is and this site is a microcosm of life centered around an idea; the Electric Vehicle. and like any "centered" thing its a circle that covers the full 360

I don't think it's up to us to be nice to Nissan, I think it's supposed to be the other way around. We do have a responsibility to be nice to each other, and not to make unreasonable complaints about Nissan or anybody else. Of course what is "unreasonable" is somewhat subject to opinion. There are spirited discussions about whether Nissan has done a good job or not in a number of areas here, and that's a good thing. Readers get different perspectives.
Being a supportor of EVs in general and the Leaf in particular doesn't mean we need to be raving Fanboys and Fangirls. If Mr/Ms Joe consumer checks MNL out, I think they would be turned off if it was all fanboy gushing. I think most of the members are pretty good about indicating that their opinions are just that, and if you are on an Internet forum, that's mostly what you see. And the overall tone is pretty positive on the Leaf. Despite ourselves, we are Fanboys!
Nissan missed a huge opportunity in not participating here, cutting short the pages of wild speculation, getting chummy with us and generating good will with their biggest supporters, etc. I'm baffled that they took a pass on this chance.
Compare that to the dealers like Leon and Brendon who found a way to participate and still maintain their separate status as dealers, while generating great PR for themselves and enthusiastic new customers for their dealership. It didn't look like it was all that hard.

Compared to what goes on generally in the blogosphere, I think things are pretty tame on MNL, and there is a lot of useful information exchanged.

I think the future Leaf buyers will be relieved that they did not get caught up in this initial delivery period.
To me it has helped understand the struggle to launch a new product and go world wide.

Also makes me happy to have chosen Leaf instead of a Volt. Ultimately it is about the car not the process to get it.

Hello,
I try to begin in the early stages of a thread to confirm or deny an issue then post my experience with as much detail as possible. Eventually everyone is posting theories if no solution is forthcoming and the techhead guys bubble to the top of reason and sanity. I appreciate the EE experience of some members as I have 30 years in automotive with a minor in EE back in the analog audio days which I have not kept up on (there is only so much time ya know).

So Thanks to everyone who helps me figure this stuff out. I can't wait till it's all 100% working great, the pots holes are filled in and the sun is shining................ especially the sun part. :lol:

On a positive spin, I LOVE MY LEAF and no amount of issues will dissuade me from it and the goal of a cleaner better lifestyle.

bowthom said:

...and the sun is shining................ especially the sun part. :lol: ...

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in Portland that should be about July 14th!

:lol:

EVDRIVER said:

The forum is not the issue its some of the uninformed speculation, rumors and guessing by members. Things like the Prius has 80Kw of regen and more than the LEAF, "someone stole my car order", the AC needs less pressure, etc. It would be better if people researched their facts and stopped speculating and also if Nissan CS would stop spreading as much false info as some posters here. I watch misinformation get posted here every few minutes and watch it turn into facts in the forum phone mill. There are also non-tech people giving tech advise and plenty of paranoia to boot. Take it all with a grain of salt, many forums are like that and Nissan is smart to stay away and only observe at best.

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It's an Internet forum. As such I find it to have significantly more informed discussion then other similar sites. Is it all factual - of course not because..... It's an Internet forum. If people are taking away information from here as fact then they should remember.... It's an Internet forum. If so call journalists are copying content from here and posting it as fact, or even just spreading the good rumors, when we all read those online publications we should recall the source of the information.... It's an Internet forum.

Oh - did I remember to mention .... It's an Internet forum!

In general I believe forums of this sort give a negative biased impression in that the problems are very prominent and it is impossible to see their frequency-- so if two or three people have a particular problem it appears significant, even if it is 3 out of 5,000== there is no way to really see that ratio from within the forum. I saw this from my experience on a Sprinter Van forum... but forums are here to stay....

SteveInSeattle said:

In general I believe forums of this sort give a negative biased impression in that the problems are very prominent and it is impossible to see their frequency-- so if two or three people have a particular problem it appears significant, even if it is 3 out of 5,000== there is no way to really see that ratio from within the forum. I saw this from my experience on a Sprinter Van forum... but forums are here to stay....

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Steve - how many Toyota's actually spontaneously accelerated? If you read the Internet forms it sounds like thousands or if you follow the recalls it sounds like tens of thousands. But exactly as you point out, the real number appears to be closer to 0 (or one or two). Sounds like your experience on the Sprinter Van forum is similar.

As you imply - when you read any Internet open forum like this you have to apply a strong personal filter. Even with that caveat, I've found this forum to have a much higher signal to noise ratio then most. It also has a much higher quotient of fun then most. There is a unusually high quality of the participants on MNL - your contributions very much included!

SteveInSeattle said:

In general I believe forums of this sort give a negative biased impression in that the problems are very prominent and it is impossible to see their frequency-- so if two or three people have a particular problem it appears significant, even if it is 3 out of 5,000== there is no way to really see that ratio from within the forum. I saw this from my experience on a Sprinter Van forum... but forums are here to stay....

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Yeah, you never hear about the happy customers.

MyNissanLeaf could setup a premium (not free) part of the forum for these kinds of posts.. you post a problem in the regular part and it soon gets moved to the appropriate part of the forum.. just to keep things organized

Herm said:

SteveInSeattle said:

In general I believe forums of this sort give a negative biased impression in that the problems are very prominent and it is impossible to see their frequency-- so if two or three people have a particular problem it appears significant, even if it is 3 out of 5,000== there is no way to really see that ratio from within the forum. I saw this from my experience on a Sprinter Van forum... but forums are here to stay....

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Yeah, you never hear about the happy customers.

MyNissanLeaf could setup a premium (not free) part of the forum for these kinds of posts.. you post a problem in the regular part and it soon gets moved to the appropriate part of the forum.. just to keep things organized

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This is true. Forum bias, survey bias all lead to "statistically" misleading information here. (Insert quotes about how stats lie here.)

Seriously, I deeply appreciate a number of things about this forum such as the presence of critical thinkers, tinkerers, and heroically early adopters willing to take apart their cars and spend hours on the CAN bus. I also appreciate the newbies who state the the erroneous and the obvious and who forget to depress the brake before punching the start button. The construction of knowledge isn't always pretty, but that's what this forum is doing as it simultaneously feeds the community. I also deeply appreciate the breadth of expertise here: mechanics, salespersons, teachers, electrical engineers, helicopter-flying-parking-lot-spy-photo-shooting Leaf junkies—I mean there are some really interesting folks, you know?

If one were to scratch behind the surface I think a number of "philosophical" reasons for purchase would appear: pragmatism, pure self-interest, ethics or environmental concerns, fear of continual war, fear of climate change—or, conversely, hope and consumerist agency in a time of dwindling resources. This list would be long, complicated, and I certainly don't know exactly why for the first time in my life I'm going to plunk down a pile of money on a new car, so let's just say that there is a part of mysterious desire in this equation. Whatever.

I think one or two things the forum could do would be to have threaded discussions. These puppies get long and cumbersome to deal with. The other possibility would be to have better stats. The survey tools are not really powerful enough to do much. Quick surveys in sidebars or the top of the page would be easier than "opting in" to a message thread. More folks would answer and you would better know who has an A/C issue and who doesn't.

Is the forum helping or hurting? I think the idea of an EV is strong enough in and of itself to succeed, and I think that truth will set us free. This will become increasingly obvious to folks. Let's not worry too much about Nissan's feelings, let's not get all paranoid either, and let's keep telling the truth as we see it. Let's also enjoy our cars, or in my case the "pending" message flashing in my brain at night when I can't sleep. Not that I'm obsessed or anything.