First full month on E-9 rates

I'm a happy girl. April was my full month of ownership and PG&Es E-9 electrical rate for EV owners. I am also a solar generator, having provided all my own electricity + a very small excess the past 2 years. So here's what happened in April:

1) I charged Sally only after midnight, 70% of the time to 80%, the rest to 100% capacity (drove ~1000 miles in April)
2) Yes I used more electricity than I generated - expected that.
3) I sold back at the standard daytime rate.

My bill for April was -$4.22!! Yes, you are reading right. Even though I used more juice than I produced, my bill was negative- due to the rates for daytime and nighttime. For me, E-9 is a big success!

LindaK said:

I'm a happy girl. April was my full month of ownership and PG&Es E-9 electrical rate for EV owners. I am also a solar generator, having provided all my own electricity + a very small excess the past 2 years. So here's what happened in April:

1) I charged Sally only after midnight, 70% of the time to 80%, the rest to 100% capacity (drove ~1000 miles in April)
2) Yes I used more electricity than I generated - expected that.
3) I sold back at the standard daytime rate.

My bill for April was -$4.22!! Yes, you are reading right. Even though I used more juice than I produced, my bill was negative- due to the rates for daytime and nighttime. For me, E-9 is a big success!

Click to expand...

Oh Yes! The magic of doing the right thing with EV + PV and TOU (Time Of Use) rates! I've been on PG&E E-7 TOU whole house with EV + PV since 1999.

As pointed out in other threads you have to analyze your usage with your utility's TOU and PV rates. Some of the Utilities have some damaging rate structures that don't encourage responsible electricity consumption (use less or even generate on peak during the day and use more at reasonable night time hours when their is excess capacity) and discourage renewable PV generation. Hopefully we can eventually bring those archaic utilities that are harming us all with higher emiisions and higher rates, forward to the present.

LindaK, how much solar do you have? What would be about the smallest solar panel system to install? I don't need to get my bill negative but sure would be nice to skim some of the gravy off the top.

LindaK said:

My bill for April was -$4.22!! Yes, you are reading right. Even though I used more juice than I produced, my bill was negative- due to the rates for daytime and nighttime. For me, E-9 is a big success!

Click to expand...

SWEET!!! I just got signed up for the E-9A rate. They told me that I could make it retroactive to the day I took delivery of the LEAF, so I have to call again on Monday to make sure that happens.

gascant said:

LindaK said:

My bill for April was -$4.22!! Yes, you are reading right. Even though I used more juice than I produced, my bill was negative- due to the rates for daytime and nighttime. For me, E-9 is a big success!

Click to expand...

SWEET!!! I just got signed up for the E-9A rate. They told me that I could make it retroactive to the day I took delivery of the LEAF, so I have to call again on Monday to make sure that happens.

Click to expand...

I don't have solar, but was considering E-9A rate. Let me know how much savings you get from the switch from E-1 (I assume that's your present rate). Since I spend most of the day working at home, I wonder how much the peak rate in the afternoon will negate the savings from charging at night.

linkim said:

I don't have solar, but was considering E-9A rate. Let me know how much savings you get from the switch from E-1 (I assume that's your present rate). Since I spend most of the day working at home, I wonder how much the peak rate in the afternoon will negate the savings from charging at night.

Click to expand...

Look at the rate schedule, the times for the TOU periods and the costs. Then go write down your electric meter readings at the TOU period times for a couple typical days or weeks.

Then you see how much electricity you use during those periods and can make an estimation of the bill on E-9. Based on those readings, you may identify electric usage that is easy to shift off peak, like doing laundry, dishwasher, vacuuming in the morning or on the weekends instead of on peak. When you need air conditioning, you can start pre-cooling the house in the morning, say 10am, instead of waiting until the 2pm peak to turn it on. Pre-cooling up to 2pm will reduce the cooling you need on peak, and on milder days you might just switch it off earlier and let the cold stored in your house coast through the heat of the peak. You'll also see how much off peak energy you use, like charging the car. You may also find it convenient to put power strips or timers on some of the evil energy vampires like set top boxes. The Comcast cable box draws 35 watts regardless of whether it is turned on or off! (35 watts * 7 peak hours = 0.245 kWh on peak, or 1+ mile of LEAF driving)

If you have a pool pump, switch it to run off peak. If you have solar water heating for your pool that needs circulation on peak, consider installing a small circulation pump since you onle need a little circulation to capture the heat, not the full force of a large pump needed for filtration and circulation. Filtartion can be done off peak.

Keep in mind that Air conditioning is probably runing a few days during the summer, your winter usage and the winter rates are different than summer.

ElectricVehicle said:

linkim said:

I don't have solar, but was considering E-9A rate. Let me know how much savings you get from the switch from E-1 (I assume that's your present rate). Since I spend most of the day working at home, I wonder how much the peak rate in the afternoon will negate the savings from charging at night.

Click to expand...

Look at the rate schedule, the times for the TOU periods and the costs. Then go write down your electric meter readings at the TOU period times for a couple typical days or weeks.

Then you see how much electricity you use during those periods and can make an estimation of the bill on E-9. Based on those readings, you may identify electric usage that is easy to shift off peak, like doing laundry, dishwasher, vacuuming in the morning or on the weekends instead of on peak. When you need air conditioning, you can start pre-cooling the house in the morning, say 10am, instead of waiting until the 2pm peak to turn it on. Pre-cooling up to 2pm will reduce the cooling you need on peak, and on milder days you might just switch it off earlier and let the cold stored in your house coast through the heat of the peak. You'll also see how much off peak energy you use, like charging the car. You may also find it convenient to put power strips or timers on some of the evil energy vampires like set top boxes. The Comcast cable box draws 35 watts regardless of whether it is turned on or off! (35 watts * 7 peak hours = 0.245 kWh on peak, or 1+ mile of LEAF driving)

If you have a pool pump, switch it to run off peak. If you have solar water heating for your pool that needs circulation on peak, consider installing a small circulation pump since you onle need a little circulation to capture the heat, not the full force of a large pump needed for filtration and circulation. Filtartion can be done off peak.

Keep in mind that Air conditioning is probably runing a few days during the summer, your winter usage and the winter rates are different than summer.

Click to expand...

Precooling the house is EXACTLY what I plan to do this summer--that is, if we ever have a summer :lol: We're coming up on Memorial Day weekend and we haven't had any occasion to use the A/C yet. But that's a subject for a vastly different thread.

ElectricVehicle said:

Look at the rate schedule, the times for the TOU periods and the costs. Then go write down your electric meter readings at the TOU period times for a couple typical days or weeks.

Then you see how much electricity you use during those periods and can make an estimation of the bill on E-9. Based on those readings, you may identify electric usage that is easy to shift off peak, like doing laundry, dishwasher, vacuuming in the morning or on the weekends instead of on peak.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the great advice. I will start tracking usage as a function of the time of day. If I can believe the data from PG&E, we are averaging about 12.75 kWh per day (no AC, no cable, no pool) so far in May even with Leaf charging. With regard to housework (laundry, vacuuming, cooking etc.), my wife does that so it is a delicate topic for me to discuss TOU rates and housework. Unless the electricity cost skyrockets because of EV charging, I may just lay low for now but track usage.

linkim said:

ElectricVehicle said:

Look at the rate schedule, the times for the TOU periods and the costs. Then go write down your electric meter readings at the TOU period times for a couple typical days or weeks.

Then you see how much electricity you use during those periods and can make an estimation of the bill on E-9. Based on those readings, you may identify electric usage that is easy to shift off peak, like doing laundry, dishwasher, vacuuming in the morning or on the weekends instead of on peak.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the great advice. I will start tracking usage as a function of the time of day. If I can believe the data from PG&E, we are averaging about 12.75 kWh per day (no AC, no cable, no pool) so far in May even with Leaf charging. With regard to housework (laundry, vacuuming, cooking etc.), my wife does that so it is a delicate topic for me to discuss TOU rates and housework. Unless the electricity cost skyrockets because of EV charging, I may just lay low for now but track usage.

Click to expand...

I've been tracking our electricity consumption for the last 10 years (well, actively for 5 but my records go that far back) and we typically used, before the LEAF, 13-15 kWh/day in the 7 non-A/C months. Going 60 miles R/T for work is going to substantially increase that, so it's critical to get on E-9A rate. The other family member knows that the dishwasher will run after midnight and clothes washing/drying will happen before 2PM weekdays.

gascant said:

The other family member knows that the dishwasher will run after midnight and clothes washing/drying will happen before 2PM weekdays.

Click to expand...

Don't forget that on the E9A rate most of the weekend all year round is Off-Peak with only the hours of 5PM to 9PM on Partial-Peak.

Be absolutely sure to fully study your PG&E bills after you "switch to E9."

I ordered the switch last October and it was implemented toward the end of that month. However I didn't bother to closely look at my monthly statements for electricity until about 6 weeks ago.

I found that though our meter has a sticker that says E9 and dated back in October, my actual billing was still on E6 rates !!!!

Then after calling and getting this recognized by our wonderful utility, they sent me out 8 separate "corrected bills" but ALL of them were WRONG too, as somehow they started my "billing year" with an $830 debit !!!!!

We have about 5.5 kW of solar PV panels and before the two electric cars (We have both the Leaf and the Volt), last year our system generated 1200kW more than we used and produced a "credit" of $438 (that customer oriented PG&E will not be paying us--because they don't have to).

I now have the first of a second wave of corrected-corrected true-up bills from PG&E and it appears that my anticipated "zero use cost" for the year projection will in fact come to pass. In fact, even charging both cars, with TOU attention, we might even have another small "credit" at the end of our true up year in September.

We also have a solar hot water system that wipes out about half of our gas charges per year.

Here is a link to a Consumer Reports piece on our cars and house:

news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/04/a-tale-of-two-evs-california-man-shows-how-chevrolet-volt-nissan-leaf-can-pay-off-1.html

Spies said:

gascant said:

The other family member knows that the dishwasher will run after midnight and clothes washing/drying will happen before 2PM weekdays.

Click to expand...

Don't forget that on the E9A rate most of the weekend all year round is Off-Peak with only the hours of 5PM to 9PM on Partial-Peak.

Click to expand...

Yep: I'm going to post a graphic near the washer and dryer so everyone in the house will be sure.

gascant said:

Spies said:

gascant said:

The other family member knows that the dishwasher will run after midnight and clothes washing/drying will happen before 2PM weekdays.

Click to expand...

Don't forget that on the E9A rate most of the weekend all year round is Off-Peak with only the hours of 5PM to 9PM on Partial-Peak.

Click to expand...

Yep: I'm going to post a graphic near the washer and dryer so everyone in the house will be sure.

Click to expand...

I wish refrigerators could have a timer to keep the compressor off during peak hours. The duty cycle I think is only about 25% so this could save a bundle of peak electric use if mandated by the government. I still want the little man to turn on the light when I open the door, just leave the compressor off a few hours.

hard to do considering refrigerators are primarily opened during peak hours which causes the compressor to run more often.

How much real temperature rise would there be? I am thinking the food would be fine to coast for six hours. I could be wrong. Just don't stand there with the door open to check if the fridge fairy brought something good to eat. At least make it optional. Lots of people are not even home all day. Or two thermostat settings say 35 off peak and 45 on peak.

ElectricVehicle said:

Look at the rate schedule, the times for the TOU periods and the costs. Then go write down your electric meter readings at the TOU period times for a couple typical days or weeks.

Then you see how much electricity you use during those periods and can make an estimation of the bill on E-9. Based on those readings, you may identify electric usage that is easy to shift off peak, like doing laundry, dishwasher, vacuuming in the morning or on the weekends instead of on peak. When you need air conditioning, you can start pre-cooling the house in the morning, say 10am, instead of waiting until the 2pm peak to turn it on. Pre-cooling up to 2pm will reduce the cooling you need on peak, and on milder days you might just switch it off earlier and let the cold stored in your house coast through the heat of the peak. You'll also see how much off peak energy you use, like charging the car. You may also find it convenient to put power strips or timers on some of the evil energy vampires like set top boxes. The Comcast cable box draws 35 watts regardless of whether it is turned on or off! (35 watts * 7 peak hours = 0.245 kWh on peak, or 1+ mile of LEAF driving)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . snip
Keep in mind that Air conditioning is probably runing a few days during the summer, your winter usage and the winter rates are different than summer.

Click to expand...

Oh, it's that simple eh? I must really be a major dope then. Among my numerous digital screens on the Landis+Gyr PV tied meter, we have readings that indicate the following:
Screen 71 - shows 459kWh
Screen 04 - shows 0004 (no designations of what that represents)
Screen 02 - shows 2.56kWh
- oh heck, I shouldn't cheat anyone from a perfect opportunity to scratch their head. HERE, for example is the illustrious screen 02:


- See all the lovely detail? How 'bout that Time Of Use (TOU) square? We're on SCE's TOU, yet in stead of the TOU box being X'ed ... it's got an X inside the "Recorder" box.
- Don't forget to note (directly under the "02" screen display) the little Black Circle dial divided into 4 quarters - numbered counter clockwise 1 thru 4 ... with NUMBER TWO currently flashing on and off. Does the little round screen stand for the four seasons? Four different pay rate times? Does is stand for the number of MONTHS we've been screaming at SCE to either come out and GET RID of the meter, or explain how we could possibly be LOOSING 60% of our (approximately $50) monthly surpluses? ... only to NEVER get a call back from SCE? Probably not? You're right !! because the little circle only flashes between the first TWO numbers. Back and forth between "1" and "2" ... does that represent day and night? Nope. Weekends? Nope. No rhyme. No reason. No consistent recognizable/discernible patters. And NO explanation(s).
But I digress . . . so let me finish with the screen data
Screen 01 - shows 439kWh

Although I can see that one screen will generally "increase" by 10kWh per day ... and another will generally increase by 14kWh per day - it means NOTHING, based off my clamp on amp probe's power readings. And it continues to mean nothing until someone down there at SCE finally pulls their head out.
:?
Yep - every one that WE've spoken to on Edison's grid tied PV - TOU simply don't get it ... we can't read the meters. But many don't find their bills to be horribly showing a short fall compared to PV surpluses generated for YEARS prior to TOU. So it doesn't bother them enough. Maybe I'd be OK with simply scratching my head too, if the convoluted meter actually gave us at least a similar benefit as what we used to get on our old fashion GE mechanical kWh meter.

hill said:

Does the little round screen stand for the four seasons? Four different pay rate times? Does is stand for the number of MONTHS we've been screaming at SCE to either come out and GET RID of the meter.

Click to expand...

I just got my TOU Smartmeter installed, same as yours. I have the "Recorder" and "KYZ" pulse boxes checked, but not "TOU".

I assumed the flashing 1 and 2 meant which tier you were currently within. Mine has only flashed "1" since I got it (about 7 days ago). I'll let you know if switches to flashing "2" in about another week, when I'll be over D-TEV baseline usage.

A number of high efficiency refrigerators run the compressor constantly, changing only it's speed to control temperature. It's a lot like the variable speed pool pumps that employ a similar strategy. Overall, it is much more efficient that way (and quieter). Our fairly new refrigerator uses that scheme.

smkettner said:

I wish refrigerators could have a timer to keep the compressor off during peak hours. The duty cycle I think is only about 25% so this could save a bundle of peak electric use if mandated by the government. I still want the little man to turn on the light when I open the door, just leave the compressor off a few hours.

Click to expand...

GeorgeParrott said:

Be absolutely sure to fully study your PG&E bills after you "switch to E9."

I ordered the switch last October and it was implemented toward the end of that month. However I didn't bother to closely look at my monthly statements for electricity until about 6 weeks ago.

Click to expand...

gascant said:

I've been tracking our electricity consumption for the last 10 years (well, actively for 5 but my records go that far back) and we typically used, before the LEAF, 13-15 kWh/day in the 7 non-A/C months. Going 60 miles R/T for work is going to substantially increase that, so it's critical to get on E-9A rate. The other family member knows that the dishwasher will run after midnight and clothes washing/drying will happen before 2PM weekdays.

Click to expand...

I currently have the E-1 rate (PG&E) and am considering switching to E-9A, now that I have my LEAF. I charge at night, usually starting at 1210 AM. For this analysis I compared the cost of electricity using the E-1 and E-9A rates for the week of May 15-21, which is the best data I have so far. Our total consumption was 110.3 kWh, and the electrical energy used for charging the LEAF was 43.1 kWh. The E-1 rate is $0.12/kWh for the calculation, and yielded a total cost of $13.24. The E-9 rate varies with time of day and is different on weekdays and weekends (thanks Spies for the info which I incorporated here). The off-peak rate is $0.05294/kWh, partial peak is $0.11135 /kWh and peak is $0.3047 /kWh. My calculation for cost using E-9A is $12.23. Based on my calculations for electricity consumption for May 15-21, there is a net savings of $1 for using the E-9A rate over E-1. Since I don’t have a regular commute, my driving pattern is somewhat irregular during the weekdays, and the distance traveled is usually less than about 30 miles/day. I will continue to track the cost using both E-1 and E-9A. If the difference is this small each week I don’t see any urgency to switch rates, especially if the electric bill gets all messed up.

smkettner said:

LindaK, how much solar do you have? What would be about the smallest solar panel system to install? I don't need to get my bill negative but sure would be nice to skim some of the gravy off the top.

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I've looked into this for much the same reason. I think a 1 kW installation would be a good start, assuming you can find a spot with at least 5 hours of good sun a day. Systems seem to run at around $4 per W if you self-install or if the install is super easy. I'm paying about $0.48 per margin kWh (not on TOU) so if I just reduce 5 kWh per day for 100 days of a year, the system has paid itself off after 17 years, not counting interest, but also not counting future higher energy costs.