Canceled reservation after almost two years of frustration

I canceled my Leaf reservation yesterday after almost two years.

Here are Nissan's blunders thus far:

15 Amp charger. Seriously? 30 Amp is twice as fast. I had 30 Amp on the RAV4 and it really, really matters. When you need to top up somewhere, waiting around 3-4 hours is doable, 6-8 hours is not. Why not 80 Amp, since J1772 supports it? Purely idiotic. ChaDemo is a scam, it will NEVER roll out en masse, but 50Amp can be easily found and would charge 3 times as fast. This is especially useful now that EVSEs pay by the hour (don't even get me started on how idiotic this is, it's cheaper to gas up a Hummer).

It sucks, but the rest of you have no idea what you are missing out on with such slow charging. I'm sure you'll tell me it's not a big deal, but seriously, I drove the RAV4 EV for 3 years, and it is so incredibly useful to charge that much faster. Some RAV4 owners have added a 50 Amp charger and will charge at 49.5 amps (which won't blow the breaker). That's a full charge for a Leaf in 2 1/2 hours.

I finally decided to accept this horrible shortcoming and just buy a car anyway. So, I kept in touch with Nissan, even keeping personal contact with some higher-ups at Nissan through some connections I have. I have been promised again and again that the cars would arrive in Colorado mid-to-late 2011, even after the Tsunami. Why does this matter? Tax credit! Take delivery in Dec. 2011, get your credit in March/ April 2012. Take delivery in January 2012? Get your tax credit in March/April 2013. A YEAR later. That's $11,500 that you have to carry an additional year. So... when does Nissan finally roll out cars in this state? JANUARY 2012! Well, at least I get the original price since I reserved a car in April 2010, right? WRONG! PRICE INCREASE!

How about guaranteed early delivery? No? Any member of the public can order a week after I can? Oh, well, that helps, I guess... THEN I go to order, and I need "Home charging assessment" before I can order? (I've got 50 Amps in my garage... right where my RAV4 charger was! I DO NOT NEED THIS!) Then, after doing some digging, I finally discover that I could call and get a waiver from Nissan, but not before ordering is opened up to the public.

The worst part about all this is if I KNEW it was going to be JANUARY 2012, I could have brought a car in from another state and saved thousands of dollars, plus have my car early.

Seriously, Nissan has botched this. Bad. I'm frustrated to no end. This relationship is unfulfilling, I'm moving on.

Nate

Sorry to hear about this. Picking up an out of state "orphan" might have been best. I totally understand your misgivings about the slow, 3.3 kW charger, though. While I really like my LEAF, that has been its biggest downside for us. At home, 3.3 kW is fine. But when charging away from home, we sometimes find it inconvenient. Thankfully, we do most of our charging at home, but on the other hand, we could use the LEAF for more trips if it could charge faster.

While we are hoping that a good network of QCs will come to be, you are certainly correct that it is slow in coming, though I don't agree that CHAdeMO is a "scam" that will never materialize. Look at Japan. They have a huge CHAdeMO network now! It would make a huge difference to LEAF drivers if Nissan dealers here in the US were to install QCs. This would only help sales.

If you're willing to pay a bit more for faster charging, you can always go with the Ford Focus Electric if you don't mind losing trunk space and forgetting about CHAdeMO, or the still-unproven Coda sedan which also has more range. Or splurge on a Tesla. However, for the most cost effective option, it might make sense to wait for the 2013 LEAF with 6.6 kW charging. Honestly, if I were considering the purchase of an EV today, I'd stick with the LEAF, but given the slow rollout of QCs, I'd delay the purchase until 6.6 kW charging becomes available.

I can understand the frustration. I dropped out of my original reservation after numerous problems with the process went unresolved. Then last month we went to a dealer and they had just what I wanted on the lot and we drove it away within the hour. The previous frustrations are now long forgotten. It won't be much longer until this is commonplace for everyone. Not everyone is prepared for the hassles of being an "early adopter". I know I wasn't.

I can't address your charging issues. For now, L1 is sufficient for me but I am looking forward to L2. A 2 hour charge would be nice, of course, but I'm sure there are any number of considerations. Not many Rav4's out there but put a dozen or so LEAFs on my block and I could see infrastructure issues arising. I'm sure there are a number of compromises involved. I guess it depends on what you really want and need. I try to keep in mind that "The perfect is the enemy of the good".

nater said:

Here are Nissan's blunders thus far:

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OK, so you've got 2 issues: 16A L2 and slow rollout. Now to be fair, you've been around since last year and seem like a reasonable fellow. It's been pretty clear that the 2012 model would still ship with 16A L2 and that rolling the car out to new areas is slow. None of this is new and has been quite clear if you've been reading the forum with some regularity as it appears you have.

The 16A charging has been discussed ad-infinitum. No sense in beating a dead horse here. If Nissan didn't go for 32A - why would they even bother with 80A when you still need DC quick charge to hit a reasonable 80% charge time of <= 30 min? It would only increase costs more.

As far as the slow rollout and tax credit issues - if I were in your shoes I would have shopped for an orphaned 2011 with the cold-weather package. Probably starting last fall, especially if you were counting on not waiting to get the tax credit.

But even then, the tax credit is a non-issue. If you know you're getting the car in 2012, just stop deducting federal taxes now (until you've saved $7500) and eliminate the wait completely!

You can still get a LEAF if you want. There's still some 2011 with CWP available in western states. I'm sure there's a dealer who would be happy to ship you one. Then adjust your federal withholdings from your paycheck, relax and be happy.

slow charging is inconvenient when there are limited options. but its only the beginning. wait until they speed up. that will happen...eventually. i predict QC will be relatively common thru out most of the US... in 5-7 years.

i admire your patience. i could not wait, but i dont live in your area and would be a major difference for me as it is for you.

now today is a good example. i left home this morning with 5 white bars. did not charge last night. did not see the need. did not charge Sunday night either but oh well ya know.

i get up, take off to appointment. parked it, charged about an hour (appointment is 45 minutes for Son) left. now am wandering thru Target for exercise. ya, i am basically power walking. (do it when i dont feel like doing the elliptical and weather is bad and have Son. prediction is 6-16" of snow between now and Wed afternoon) Leaf is at the other end of the shopping center at Sears charging. probably get another hour or so in. depends on Son and when he gets tired (he wastes a lot of energy running back and forth while i am walking. if he conserved he could last a lot longer...)

after this we will buzz by home (today is towel and sock day. so wash ok but dryer take forever. so wash, dry and fold total of 3 loads. matching socks take at least 20-30 minutes) move laundry around and take off, probably for lunch. we have several "plug opts" but may not plug in at all. most of the plug opts are L1 so hardly worth effort to haul EVSE around. soon, we have QC, so can do that and eat, but probably not free, so will stick with free opts most likely until they are no longer free either. then i may have to start plugging in more often than 3-5 times a week

nater said:

I canceled my Leaf reservation yesterday after almost two years.

Nate

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Your loss, whiner.

SmokeMaker said:

nater said:

I canceled my Leaf reservation yesterday after almost two years.

Nate

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Your loss, whiner.

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well, sometimes you have to accept the loss, fall back and regroup. i am sure Nate will find an EV option and sorry the Leaf did not work out. it is a compromise, of that there is no doubt but it does also provide a benefit in many different ways.

i know it was a tough decision for him and the support of the community he lives in should be a big part of his decision. as for me; i could live without the public charging infrastructure but it would be limiting. but it is still a start. i am lucky to live in an area that already had a base of public charging options for EVs and a state that is motivated to take it to the next level right now.

nater said:

15 Amp charger. Seriously? 30 Amp is twice as fast. I had 30 Amp on the RAV4 and it really, really matters.
Nate

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I think Nate is comparing apples to oranges

nater said:

The worst part about all this is if I KNEW it was going to be JANUARY 2012, I could have brought a car in from another state and saved thousands of dollars, plus have my car early.
Nate

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Thousands of dollars, really


The capability's of the car was well known a very long time ago and I will not fault them for delivery of the vehicle after a Tsunami of that size.

But I do hope Nate finds something that fits his needs.

Rejected your credit app, eh? :lol:

Hi, Nate,

Unlike some others here, I don't think you have been unreasonable. Having to carry an extra $11,500 of debt for a year, a price increase of $4K, and the hassles you mention around installation would frustrate me, too.

I have the 2011, and would love it if it charged faster. I think once DCQC becomes available, this will seem like much less of a limitation, though--we'll be able to charge at up to 62.5kW on the road or 3.3kW at home. That being said, most of us do not have DCQC yet, and for many it is not in the foreseeable future. (Fortunately my area (Seattle) is starting to see some love.) That means the reality for most of us for the moment is 3.3kW on the road, which is painful.

I hope you come across a great 2011 orphan with DCQC, just waiting to go home with you, because despite the slow charging, it is a wonderful car.

All the best,
-Brad

nater said:

I canceled my Leaf reservation yesterday after almost two years.

Here are Nissan's blunders thus far:

15 Amp charger. Seriously? 30 Amp is twice as fast. I had 30 Amp on the RAV4 and it really, really matters. When you need to top up somewhere, waiting around 3-4 hours is doable, 6-8 hours is not. Why not 80 Amp, since J1772 supports it? Purely idiotic. ChaDemo is a scam, it will NEVER roll out en masse, but 50Amp can be easily found and would charge 3 times as fast. This is especially useful now that EVSEs pay by the hour (don't even get me started on how idiotic this is, it's cheaper to gas up a Hummer).

It sucks, but the rest of you have no idea what you are missing out on with such slow charging. I'm sure you'll tell me it's not a big deal, but seriously, I drove the RAV4 EV for 3 years, and it is so incredibly useful to charge that much faster. Some RAV4 owners have added a 50 Amp charger and will charge at 49.5 amps (which won't blow the breaker). That's a full charge for a Leaf in 2 1/2 hours.

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You know I can understand your complaints about the charger. I have made the same complaint on this forum more than once. Here in Utah we have very few public charge stations, but there are RV parks all over the state and all of these RV parks have nice 50 amp outlets, just waiting to be used. I hope Nissan corrects this problem soon.

My solution was have the 14 amp charger on the SV model and put a 50 amp charger on the SL model, then let the customer decide what they want.

As for your complaint of waiting 2 years, that one I do not understand. Fontana and Mossy both have orphans for sale any day of the week you want to buy one. Just pick up the phone and you can have one delivered to your door, that is what I did after getting the song and dance routine from the Utah Nissan Dealers.

You do not have to wait unless you want to wait. In spite of the wimpy charger the 2012 Leaf is one hell of a car and you my friend are missing out.

KJD

The reason I put off buying an orphan was because Nissan promised again and again that they would make it to Colorado before the end of 2011. By the time it became apparent they would not, my only choice was to try to chase down an orphan. Two others here in Colorado gave up sooner than I did and changed their address in the Nissan database and Nissan let them order. Basically, Nissan strung me along. Hey, I let them do it, so it's partly my fault for having so much faith.

On a side note, quick charging is a pipe dream. The grid will never handle the load, also, it damages the battery. I had my RAV4 EV for 3 years, and seriously, being able to use 240v at max amperage anywhere you can find it is extremely freeing, you can drive all over the place. NONE of you have experienced what this is like. It changes the EV dynamic completely. The incremental cost to go to 6.6kw is probably under $100.

Last month I was in an eBox and we were on 0%. We plugged into a nearby 240v 70Amp circuit and brought the car almost full in about 90 minutes. (Yes, we drew 70 amps). That's a 35kwh battery. Note also the car keeps going when the battery is near death, unlike the Leaf; it's algorithm is simply to draw fewer amps at low SOC so the car is sluggish, but it WILL get you there.

Anyway, I digress. In spite of all this, I was still willing to buy a car. LAST month.

And careful who you call whiner. You have no idea of my history and what I've done for EVs. I won't go into detail since I don't think it's relevant to my point about Nissan's botched Colorado launch. All I ever wanted was an honest timeline, that's all, and they refused to give it to me.

Anyway, I'll revisit the Leaf at the end of the year if it still interests me.

Nate

nater said:

On a side note, quick charging is a pipe dream. The grid will never handle the load, also, it damages the battery.

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If you were at the SF BayLeaf's meeting w/the Kadota-san, Mark Perry + whole bunch of other Nissan folks, they discussed for the warning about QCing only 1 per day. Essentially (someone can correct me if my details are wrong) that it was to be conservative and had to do more w/battery heating and temp due to QC. They're more concerned w/QCing in the worst case (hot outside like in Arizona summer).

I think everyone who heard what they said would disagree w/you about QC damaging the battery.

cwerdna said:

I think everyone who heard what they said would disagree w/you about QC damaging the battery.

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I was at that meeting, and hearing some of these comments was very refreshing. Especially given all the speculation on this topic here and elsewhere. I want this technology to succeed, and I sincerely wish that the QC network does take off.

But to rephrase what Nate said above, I believe that charging with 0.5C (or something close to it) does not harm the battery, and it might be preferable to bona fide fast charging. Unfortunately, I cannot quantify just how much better this would be, and there were other voices saying that modern cells can readily tolerate fast charging.

Considering some external factors, such as demand charges in California, limiting current draw to something between 0.5 and 1C might be desirable. I could be wrong, but it appears that Nissan does something similar to protect the car when you try to fast charge a few times in a short period of time.

Be it as it may, the main advantage of QC is arguably speed. Nissan QC is rated at 2C, but the session information I found online indicates that it rarely exceeds 1.5C, and averages 1C in a typical session. This means that the advantage over slower types of charging might not be all that great.

My information on this topic is not authoritative, and I don't want to speculate too much, but perhaps we can agree that there are still some blanks and we might be missing important details on QC. Meanwhile, the type of charging Nate describes is here now, and it's tried and proven.

cwerdna said:

I think everyone who heard what they said would disagree w/you about QC damaging the battery.

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From all I've heard about it, I wouldn't worry about quick charging two or three times in a day for a road trip three or four times a year. I'd be watching the temperature gauge, but I imagine the Nissan software would be watching the temperature gauge even more carefully. Nor if I lived in an apartment without access to overnight L2 charging would I worry about quick charging once every day or two.

As for whether the grid can handle quick chargers, a 50,000 square foot office building can draw ten times the kW of a Chademo charger. ( http://www.eia.gov/emeu/consumptionbriefs/cbecs/pbawebsite/office/office_howuseelec.htm ) An office building or multi-building complex with a demand management system would see a Chademo charger as just another load to be balanced, and not the largest.

bradleygibson said:

I have the 2011, and would love it if it charged faster. I think once DCQC becomes available, this will seem like much less of a limitation, though--we'll be able to charge at up to 62.5kW on the road or 3.3kW at home.

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I'm afraid you are being a bit optimistic. 62.5 kW would charge from LBW to 80% in less than 15 minutes, rather than the 30 minutes Nissan promises.

surfingslovak said:

Nissan QC is rated at 2C, but the session information I found online indicates that it rarely exceeds 1.5C, and averages 1C in a typical session.

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Yes, he knows what he is talking about. 2C would be 48 kW, 1C is 24 kW.

Ray

i think it is shortsighted to get too bent out of shape that the rebate will be delayed a year. there are lots of ways to carry that money and the year would be over before you know it.

nater said:

On a side note, quick charging is a pipe dream. The grid will never handle the load, also, it damages the battery. I had my RAV4 EV for 3 years, and seriously, being able to use 240v at max amperage anywhere you can find it is extremely freeing, you can drive all over the place. NONE of you have experienced what this is like. It changes the EV dynamic completely. The incremental cost to go to 6.6kw is probably under $100.

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IMO - unless the car easily lets one adjust charge rate (like the Tesla Roadster), any increase in charge rate will significantly increase the load on the grid.

Have a look at the Q3 2011 EV Project report and what TOU rates do for charging profiles. The peak demand has a huge spike around midnight for areas with TOU. SDG&E area probably has the worst one. Demand with just 442 cars in the project can spike to 824 kW immediately at midnight (about half the cars started charging). Now imagine that each of these cars had the equivalent of a Tesla HPC and could charge at 240V70A / 17 kW or about 4x faster. Now demand might spike up to 3 MW. Multiply that by 1000 once we get a decent number of EVs on the road and now we're looking at a 3 GW spike in demand vs a 800 MW spike in demand. 3GW of demand is like 1.5 San Onofre nuclear plants firing up all at once. Even 800 MW is a pretty good sized gas powered plant. And this ignores the neighborhood effects of a big load since most owners are going to want to install a charger with the most capacity available to take advantage of fast charging at home when needed. A lot more neighborhood transformers will have to be upgraded to handle the load.

It's pretty clear that some additional work will need to be done to make charging smarter. Not that difficult - most of the time you want the car to charge as slow as possible while fitting into the lowest priced TOU time frames. Failing that, at least the car needs to be aware of TOU time frames and better randomize charging within that time frame to minimize spikes in demand.

nater said:

Last month I was in an eBox and we were on 0%. We plugged into a nearby 240v 70Amp circuit and brought the car almost full in about 90 minutes. (Yes, we drew 70 amps). That's a 35kwh battery. Note also the car keeps going when the battery is near death, unlike the Leaf; it's algorithm is simply to draw fewer amps at low SOC so the car is sluggish, but it WILL get you there.

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The LEAF does this too with turtle mode. The difference is that the LEAF allows access to full power for longer while the eBox apparently starts to limit power sooner. It's not like the LEAF doesn't give you plenty of warning with the low battery warning and very low battery warning - never mind the eBox has the advantage of 40% more battery capacity.

nater said:

Anyway, I digress. In spite of all this, I was still willing to buy a car. LAST month.

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As I said before - if that was only because of tax reasons, there's plenty of ways to take advantage of the tax credit basically immediately (or even ahead of time) by adjusting your withholdings. You could completely stop your withholdings right now until you've accumulated $7500 worth of missing witholdings, then start them back up again - then buy the car any time between now and Dec 31, 2012 without penalty (as long as you aren't making estimated tax payments, I believe, consult your tax advisor).

nater said:

All I ever wanted was an honest timeline, that's all, and they refused to give it to me.

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I don't think Nissan themselves actually knows down to the month. Typically manufacturing is run very lean on low inventory so what's "planned" and what actually happens are two different things.

I can see your frustration, but it's really no different than what people went through a year ago. Go read some posts from last year - you'll find that just about everyone expected their car to arrive in January (heck, at one point I expected to get mine in December!) - but most didn't get their car until much, much later.

nater said:

Anyway, I'll revisit the Leaf at the end of the year if it still interests me.

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Then you can be the first on the block with a 6.6kW charger in a 2013 LEAF.

drees said:

nater said:

...Demand with just 442 cars in the project can spike to 824 kW immediately at midnight (about half the cars started charging). Now imagine that each of these cars had the equivalent of a Tesla HPC and could charge at 240V70A / 17 kW or about 4x faster. ... And this ignores the neighborhood effects of a big load since most owners are going to want to install a charger with the most capacity available to take advantage of fast charging at home when needed. A lot more neighborhood transformers will have to be upgraded to handle the load....

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And I wonder if this isn't a major reason why Nissan decided to go with 3.3kW charging -- wanting the LEAF to be a good neighbor and staying as far away from infrastructure issues as possible during the crucial early-adoption phase.

At some point these constraints will become important. Companies like PG&E really need to start focusing on how to divert these demands into the off-peak (with appropriate stagger) with attractive policies, instead of making Time of Use into some kind of booby-trapped Vision Quest. Their "cost recovery" concept is beyond myopic.