Moving 2011 Leaf to cold weather climate -- add package?

Hi --

My 2011 Nissan Leaf SL and I are in San Francisco now, but we are considering a move to Chicago for a career change. Of course, that means much colder winters, so I'm considering whether I should add the cold weather package. I understand that the battery heater only starts at -4 F and stops at 14 F... but -4 actually could be a reality in a place like Chicago.
Does anyone have information on:
1. Whether you can add a cold weather package to an existing 2011 Leaf.
2. How much it would cost.
3. Whether it is worth the cost, and if I decide not to get it, how much range might be lost on those days when the battery gets very cold (i.e. below -4 F).

Thanks,
Josh

It is not possible to add the Cold Weather Package after the fact, but you could add aftermarket seat heaters...

barsad22 said:

My 2011 Nissan Leaf SL and I are in San Francisco now, but we are considering a move to Chicago for a career change. Of course, that means much colder winters, so I'm considering whether I should add the cold weather package. I understand that the battery heater only starts at -4 F and stops at 14 F... but -4 actually could be a reality in a place like Chicago.
Does anyone have information on:
1. Whether you can add a cold weather package to an existing 2011 Leaf.
2. How much it would cost.
3. Whether it is worth the cost, and if I decide not to get it, how much range might be lost on those days when the battery gets very cold (i.e. below -4 F).

Click to expand...

Tom --

Do you suggest anything else I can do to keep the battery warm in extremely cold weather? And how much loss in range do you think I can expect going from 50-60 degree winters in SF to 0-20 degree winters in Chicago?

Best,
Josh

"Cold temperature increases the internal resistance and diminishes the capacity. Batteries that would provide 100 percent capacity at 27°C (80°F) will typically deliver only 50 percent at –18°C (0°F). The capacity decrease is linear with temperature." Quote from Battery University.

tombobcat said:

"Cold temperature increases the internal resistance and diminishes the capacity. Batteries that would provide 100 percent capacity at 27°C (80°F) will typically deliver only 50 percent at –18°C (0°F). The capacity decrease is linear with temperature." Quote from Battery University.

Click to expand...

I'm currently working on a 1% reduction per 4F in temperature reduction. Our batteries don't do as poorly as this quote. 80F to 0F would be a 20% drop in battery capacity.


http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=167881#p167881" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First, we have to understand that the battery warmer offer by Nissan will not increase your range. What it will do is heat up the battery from -20C / -4F to -10C / 14F with a 300 watt heater. The purpose is to protect the battery from freezing.

The other bits of the Cold Weather Package will be more beneficial to you; the seat and steering wheel heaters will mitigate your use of the energy hog heater. You can add the seat heater easily and cheaply. The steering wheel... not so much.

The outside mirrors are heated , too, with CWP.

Now, can you add a battery heater? Sure, but the heater I recommend is one that attaches to the bottom of the metal battery tray and plugs directly into 120v. The good news is that it will actually increase your range, unlike the factory option.

Here's a look at the hardware that Nissan uses for the battery heater:

If you can garage the LEAF at night in Chicago, you might be able to keep the garage a bit warm, or use a plug-in "blanket" warmer, or the heating tape used on water pipes to keep them from freezing. Lots of choices since you have 120v power available in the garage.

Parking outside for long hours during a very cold day is another issue, since you generally don't have external power available. However, you could use 12v DC power, but that normally requires leaving the car ON, so the Battery Pack will keep the 12v battery charged. Not a perfect solution if no external power is available.

barsad22 said:

Hi --
My 2011 Nissan Leaf SL and I are in San Francisco now, but we are considering a move to Chicago for a career change.

Click to expand...

Wow I hope that new job also doubles you salary, otherwise I would just stay put.

If you really really want to try living in a cold windy city, call your favorite Nissan dealer and ask how much to trade in your 2011 for a 2012 with the cold weather package. I have been to Chicago in December and it is one of the few places that felt colder than Salt Lake City in December.

I bought my 2012 Leaf in November and after living with it this past winter I can tell you that you REALLY DO want those heated seats and heated steering wheel. Nissan made the right choice in putting the cold weather package on all the 2012 cars. You are a perfect example of why that was a good decision.

The next thing that you need to do is tell your new employeer in Chicago that you MUST HAVE a J1772 charge station in the parking lot at your new job location. If the man tells you no way, then they really do not want you bad enough. Charging the battery while at work will enable you to get home at night without any questions about cold weather range.

KJD

I would highly recommend finding a way to trade up without eating to much value. Cold seems to reduce efficiency and charge capacity and climate control use only compounds that. the seat heaters and steering wheel heater are worth it in and of themselves, as the transfer of heat is sooo much more efficient. I've found anything below 40 F gets cumbersome to manage without substantial loss of range if you lack the CWP!

Looks like most (not everyone lists their home city) posters on this thread so far are NOT from Chicago so speaking as one '12 owner for the last two months; you'll want the CWP. Nissan waited on this market until the CWP was out for a reason. This year our winter has been rather mild but whose to say what it will be in the years ahead. Besides the battery warmer, which you'll only need on the absolute coldest days -- we had no below zero days so far, one day it did drop to about 7F but that didn't last long. The other real difference is personal comfort (heated seats front/rear and heated steering wheel) so that you don't need to run the regular heater as long --- w/o being able to use these your overall range will drop by quite a bit as you'll simply need to run the heater unless you like the cold! If you're able to have a garage or otherwise semi-heated place to store and charge the car overnight you might be OK w/o the CWP but if we have a really cold winter and the car stays outside for long periods of time I simply wouldn't do it. The other factors you haven't mentioned that you should run through on a spread sheet -- if you're offered a relo package will it include shipping the car as I really doubt you'll want to try driving the thing waiting for it to slowly recharge every 80 to 100 miles!! (we're talking over 2,300 miles after all). When we relocated from Upstate NY to the Chicago area years ago, we did get a decent relo package but it did NOT include getting our cars out here -- as it sounds like the career change may be with another company and the relo may be up to you, see what you can get versus shipping the car, sales taxes, etc. before making a decision. We also have an up to $4K, 10% IL EPA rebate if you buy it here (along with the fed tax credit) so be sure to look at all the economic angles besides just the CWP. As a footnote -- the dealer demo cars out here are all '11's but they have the CWP on them --

I would consider trading for a newer model with the cold weather package if you ever foresee leaving your car outside in temperatures below -4 degrees F. The battery freezes (turns into an ice cube) at that temperature and ceases to produce power. Otherwise, if you are never going to leave it outside in such a condition, it should be OK. Adding seat heaters or simply a heated seat cover should be fine.

Chicago, being what it is, I would want to trade for a LEAF equipped with the cold weather package. I personally would investigate selling it myself private party while getting my name on the list for a new one.

kovalb said:

I would consider trading for a newer model with the cold weather package if you ever foresee leaving your car outside in temperatures below -4 degrees F. The battery freezes (turns into an ice cube) at that temperature and ceases to produce power.

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The battery freezes at -30C / -22F.

The 300watt battery heater comes on at -20C / -4F to prevent the battery from reaching -30C.

Park in heated (or attached) garage @ home.
On really really cold, miserable days, take public transportation, taxi or stay home!
(Also reduces likelihood of having a wreck in cold weather)

Thanks Tony and all others who have posted:

Tony, do you have a link to the battery tray heater you mention that can be plugged in? Also, do you have a link to those aftermarket seatwarmers for the Leaf? Thanks for your help.

In response to some of the other suggestions... I hope to have a garage in Chicago, so I don't think it will ever get below zero in a garage, especially with a small "don't go below" heater set at a minimum temperature. According to one Web site there are about 13 sub-zero low temp days in winter there, and my guess is most of the lows occur in the middle of the night.

So I think there is very little to worry about except the scenario of leaving your car parked outside for several days or in -22F conditions (which would have to be record-setting temp)... the best solution is to not do that, right?

It sounds like there could be some range loss, but if it's 20 percent at 0 degrees, I can live with it. Remember that the 2012 Leafs will also have this range loss... I don't see the CWP helping with that. Let's not forget also about the timed climate control which will draw from the charger while it's still plugged in. That initial heat will keep the car toasty for almost all but the longest drives.

Josh

barsad22 said:

Tony, do you have a link to the battery tray heater you mention that can be plugged in? Also, do you have a link to those aftermarket seatwarmers for the Leaf?

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Easy to find that stuff on the big Internet. Maybe I'll market that stuff for next winter, since it comes up a lot.

It sounds like there could be some range loss, but if it's 20 percent at 0 degrees, I can live with it. Remember that the 2012 Leafs will also have this range loss... I don't see the CWP helping with that.

Click to expand...

CWP does not help battery capacity in cold; it protects it from freezing below -20C. In addition to about 70F / 4 = 17.5% loss in battery capacity at zero F, there is additional energy usage to run the cabin heater. CWP saves range by allowing just the steering wheel and seat heaters (maybe 200watt) instead of the multiple thousand watt cabin heater.

If you preheat the battery and the cabin while plugged in, there will be a remarkably small loss of range.

Re-post from one of my previous (edited) posts:


Two major factors affect your range in cold weather:

1. The amount of energy used to heat the cabin. Just using seat and steering wheel heat (not climate control) saves oodles of power if you need it, but your feet get cold. You could use a 12 volt, waterproof, carbon fiber motorcycle seat heater under the pedals to warm you feet area for only 4 amps of power. The high setting will have a constant range between 120°F to 125°F. The low setting ranges between 110°F to 115°F. 1 Pad 9"x15"
Pad is approximately 1/32" thick. Length can be trimmed to any size with any scissor, width cannot be trimmed and has to stay at 9"... $70.

http://69.94.77.153/product/carbon_fiber_dual_temp_waterproof_single_pad_seat_heater_kit_sil-03.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As has been suggested, preheat the car with your climate control timer, or the iPhone app, or on the Internet at Carwings.

2. Temperature has a profound effect on the amount of available power the battery has, and how much regen it can accept. A battery at 10F will have a 15% drop in available power (21kWh available at 70F might be 17.85kWh available on a full charge at 10F (70F - 10F = 60 temperature delta / 4 = 15% reduction in battery capacity attributed to cold)

For example, if you can average 3.6 miles/kWh driving with the heater on, your range in the LEAF might be 3.6 * 17.85 = 64.25 miles on a 100% charge. Range is always energy consumption multipled by battery capacity.

How would you know what the battery temp is? You don't. The temp gauge is just about as worthless as the GuessOmeter. But, if the car has been sitting in the cold for 8 hours, you can guess that the battery is at the ambient air temperature. If its been in a garage at 50F, your range (based on battery capacity) will most likely be aligned with the 50F data (70F - 50F = 20 temp delta / 4 = 5% battery capacity loss) even if the outside air was much colder. That 600 pound battery, densely packed in an airtight (and waterproof) container will not quickly heat or cool to the ambient temperature.

So, in summary, any heater usage will be reflected in your miles/kWh average, and battery capacity is a factor of battery temperature. Range is simply your miles/kWh multiplied by available battery power. Don't use the climate control for longest range, and do whatever you can to keep the battery pack warm before launch into the cold.

Bon voyage.

Josh,

I have a LEAF in Minnesota,and cold weather really affects the car. I would suggest you get the "warmer package" that is on the 2012 cars, and if it is going to cost a lot, you may want to sell your 2011 and buy a '12 in Chicago. That would save the shipping which is about $800. The most important thing about the 2012 is the seat warmers and the steering wheel warmer. They are very nice. I can't comment about the battery warmer, but I imagine it is very good to have in a cold climate.

One other thing, if you are going to have a LEAF in a cold climate, you really need an indoor garage for overnight storage/charging.

Finally, very cold weather really affects range, so make this part of your commute equation.