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tomsax
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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:38 pm

SanDust wrote:The other new information we now have is that, since we know the Volt uses exactly 10.6 kWh to travel 35 miles at an efficiency rating of 93 MPGE, we now know the Leaf is using 20.8 kWh (21 kWh?) of its battery pack to go 73 miles with an efficiency rating of 99 MPGe.


You are mixing the MPGe numbers (wall-to-wheel) with battery-to-wheel numbers. They are aren't the same. You can't calculate the usable capacity of the Leaf's pack without also knowing the charging efficiency of both vehicles with as much accuracy as the other numbers.
Tom Saxton
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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:10 pm

lne937s wrote: The cost per year is based on $.12 per kWh for electricity.


Nope. Not always. Check the Volt EPA sticker!

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tomsax
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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:47 pm

For comparison, the EPA rating for my 2008 Tesla Roadster to 26 kWh/100 mile city and 29 highway with a range of 244 miles.

I find that if I drive at a steady 55 mph on level freeway, I get energy use consistent with the 244-mile range. My best test of this was in March 2010, when I drove 182 miles at 55 mph and had 60 miles of range showing at the end of the drive. If I drive 70 mph, it's more like 175 miles.

Like the Leaf, the Roadster has two charge modes. Range mode gives you the full usable capacity of the battery pack and the full range. Standard mode gives you access to the middle 80% of the battery pack and about 195 miles at 55 mph.

After about 18 months and 14,000 miles, the range mode capacity has dropped to 234 and standard mode to 183, for a loss of about 5% of the range. Tesla has muddied the waters here by changing the way the firmware calculates the capacity of the battery, in a way that dropped the estimated range shown on the screen, so it's possible the loss in range is not as large as the reported numbers indicate.

In terms of power, I very slightly bested my quarter-mile time from last year, 12.978 seconds July 2010 vs. 12.982 seconds July 2009. I believe I've improved my launch technique, so it's possible the battery pack has lost a little bit of power, but is seems smaller than the loss in energy capacity.

In terms of day-to-day driving in standard mode, if I'm driving under 150 miles I don't even have to think about charge. I can drive however I like without regard to efficiency. For drives this short, the Roadster is completely care-free. Driving 180 miles, even in range mode, requires paying attention to your speed and often going below the posted speed limit on freeways. When driving to maximize range, I've changed my driving to take state highways with speed limits of 60 mph or less instead of 70 mph freeways, and optimize routes for distance. I like driving this way, the routes generally have more varied scenery and less traffic.

I'm assuming the EV range test hasn't changed from when the Roadster was tested in late 2008. From that, I have to assume that it will take some careful driving to get 73 on the freeway. In the 80% mode, it will take careful driving to get 58 miles of range, and 45 miles will be the range you can get in the 80% mode without needing to think about charging.

The most unhappy Roadster owner I know drives 200 miles per day on a regular basis. The only EV1 owner I've ever heard complain about the experience had one of the early lead-acid models with a 75-mile range and drove a 74-mile commute. I think a Leaf driver trying to get over 60 miles without charging on a typical day will be unhappy and anyone trying to get 73 miles regularly will become a vocal EV detractor. If you have Level 2 charging at home and can also charge at work, you can probably push up to 80 (120V charging) or 120 (Level 2 charging) miles.

If you're not sure these range numbers will easily meet your driving needs, I strongly urge you not to be one of the first Leaf owners. Wait until we have lots of real people reporting their actual driving experience so you can determine if the car really meets your needs.

My wife and I are pretty early in the list by order date, so I expect will get ours early in the process. We'll test the car and report what we find to the community.
Tom Saxton
Sammamish, WA

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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:58 pm

Excellent real-world info tomsax! 13-second silent 1/4mi runs. Sweet.

I suspect you're right, that those of us who intend to drive the Leaf like a Juke are in for a range surprise. Fortunately, my commute is short and I can charge at work, but still, I will have to think ahead for longer drives.

80% charge, 45 miles of agressive driving.. that could be a surprise.

cdub
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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:09 am

tomsax wrote:I'm assuming the EV range test hasn't changed from when the Roadster was tested in late 2008. From that, I have to assume that it will take some careful driving to get 73 on the freeway. In the 80% mode, it will take careful driving to get 58 miles of range, and 45 miles will be the range you can get in the 80% mode without needing to think about charging.


It might have changed. According to Tesla's financial outlook (it's publicly traded now):

http://www.dailytech.com/Sales+of+Tesla ... e19365.htm

Tesla believes that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, will revise the Roadster's driving range of 220+ miles after new testing, which could lead to it being reduced by as much as 30 percent.
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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:08 am

Yet another debate on what's wrong with the EPA's new numbers; it's going to be hard to keep everyone happy. In the end, the "car" itself does indeed generate zero emissions so I take exception to the writer's last comment, otherwise they should add-in the emissions equivalent to the entire distribution chain (i.e., oil extraction, crude transporation, refining, more trasnport to the gas station) of how gas gets delivered to ICE vehicles that should be included to their EPA stickers which further complicates things but may eventually show an 'apples to apples' that they are trying to make a point on -- the point should be how much does it cost the consumer and of course your mileage may vary so at least it's a start; not 100% accurate as to all costs and emissions but a start!


http://blogs.forbes.com/warrenmeyer/2010/11/24/the-epas-electric-vehicle-mileage-fraud/
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:30 am

great writeup Tom;

as always, you have to consider that speed kills on an EV because of lack of regen (generally) for freeway driving and the huge increase in wind friction.

so what can we gleen from the computer that determined that we will get 73 miles on a charge? well, we already knew that at average freeway speeds, the range estimate w/o climate controls was umm?? 80. so nothing new here.

funny how a very very very small wrinkle in info we already knew causes so much concern.

what about the freeway driving (55 mph average which means most driving at 65 mph+) in hot weather getting 70 miles? Nissan posted that MONTHS ago.

or how about if we were in a Leaf 3 days ago in Seattle? cold weather, heat blasting, stuck in I-5 (if you were lucky enough to make it that far!!) gridlock; 62 miles. but then again that would not have worked. it assumes over 4 hours of being stuck in traffic when many reported 6 hours + to get home.

ya, maybe some of us should rethink our purchase. drop out. wait and see. besides i have a few friends who are now strongly interested in a Leaf but are looking at 12 months + for a car. so if some of you could change your mind...
Last edited by DaveinOlyWA on Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:51 am

There are many at the edge of the envelope (range wise) who
may want to wait. For better infrastructure, better chargers,
better mileage, etc. Those of us who drive little to begin with
can make the transition tomorrow with no noticeable effect.
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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:12 am

hodad66 wrote:There are many at the edge of the envelope (range wise) who
may want to wait. For better infrastructure, better chargers,
better mileage, etc. Those of us who drive little to begin with
can make the transition tomorrow with no noticeable effect.



There is always tomorrow,tomorrow,tomorrow,tomorrow,tomorrow,tomorrow,tomorrow.

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Re: EPA: Nissan Leaf gets 99 mpg equivalent

Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:59 pm

SanDust wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Funny how we take this new info as "the word" ignoring all the scenarios on range previously discussed at length.

The EPA range number is not "new". As Herm mentioned, people have known that the LA4 Cycle is very mild and that to get to the more realistic range the EPA applies a 30% reduction factor. In fact if you look at the Honda press release for the Fit-EV, which Honda issued last week, it explicitly says the range of the Fit-EV will be 100 miles on the LA4 Cycle which will mean it has a 70 mile range on the more real world EPA sticker.

Doubtless some drivers will get more range. Some have gotten close to 60 miles when driving the Volt in CD Mode, and some have gotten over 100 miles when driving the Leaf, but the EPA range estimate is realistic for the vast majority of drivers.

The "new" information is that the Volt's sticker, which was released today, says that the Volt has a 35 mile range, or about half the Leaf's range. Since GM has said the Volt's range in the real world will be between 25-50 miles, 25 miles being an absolute worst case, we can assume the Leaf's real world range will be roughly between 50-100 miles (when new) with a worst case of 50 miles. The other new information we now have is that, since we know the Volt uses exactly 10.6 kWh to travel 35 miles at an efficiency rating of 93 MPGE, we now know the Leaf is using 20.8 kWh (21 kWh?) of its battery pack to go 73 miles with an efficiency rating of 99 MPGe.


Worst case for LEAF at 50 miles? I know that I read somewhere that Nissan said the lowest you would get (going 90 mph) was 62 w/o A/C or heater. The best would be 138.
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