LeftieBiker
Posts: 8915
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:41 pm

I saw that. You aren't explaining why comparing Hx and SOH among the three pack sizes (or the four or five chemistries) wouldn't accomplish just what you (and many of us as well) want: a way of predicting future degradation of the 40kwh pack.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:50 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I saw that. You aren't explaining why comparing Hx and SOH among the three pack sizes (or the four or five chemistries) wouldn't accomplish just what you (and many of us as well) want: a way of predicting future degradation of the 40kwh pack.


It would just provide info as to what's actually happening within the battery causing the effects, i.e. increased battery heat from increased
battery resistance which in turn reduces SOH - less Ahrs - increased rate of change of battery degradation over time versus earlier batteries
as the comparative graphs indicated. If the battery resistances are greater for the 30 & 40 batteries, they will develop more internal heat
and accelerate degradation.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F, min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

LeftieBiker
Posts: 8915
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:30 pm

We have Hx and SOH measurements for the older packs. We don't have records of the different measure of internal resistance you seek. It seems of little value to measure the oranges in the 40kwh packs and then compare them to the apples in the older packs.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:59 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:We have Hx and SOH measurements for the older packs. We don't have records of the different measure of internal resistance you seek. It seems of little value to measure the oranges in the 40kwh packs and then compare them to the apples in the older packs.


You're missing the key point. Yes, it's has become apparent that a high percentage of the 30kWhr batteries have a higher rate of degradation.
That most understand and agree on. Most likely some specific parameter about the battery can account for this difference, e.g. potentially
higher internal resistance resulting on average a higher battery temperature during use. If that's the case and the 40kWhr batteries also
exhibit a higher internal battery resistance, then the 40kWhr batteries may also have a higher degradation rate. If so, both of the later
batteries may have necessitated the use of TMS more than the earlier batteries. All we need is some sample data from the 30 & 40
batteries. Based on reviewing Hx values posted, it's doubtful that it represents the battery's internal resistance, other than another
measure of lost capacity.

Here're my data from my '13.

11/20/14 -13,700 miles, 76 mohms per LeafDD, 20 Deg, 73% SOC
11/27 -13,800 miles, 67 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 63% SOC
11/30 - 13,900 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 71% SOC
12/2 - 14.100 miles, 55 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg, 67% SOC
12/16 - 14,500 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 15 deg, 93% SOC
12/27/14 - 14,800 miles, 103 mohms per LeafDD, 11 deg, 24% SOC
3/10 - 17,400 miles, 60 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 73% SOC
3/14 - 17, 550 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 32 deg, 47% SOC
4/14 - 19,100 miles, 59 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg. 38% SOC
5/4 - 19,989 miles, 64 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg. 48% SOC
5/15 - 20,400 miles, 73 mohms per LeafDD, 20 deg. 41% SOC
5/22 - 20,700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg. 50% SOC
12/10/15 - 28,000 miles, 90 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg. 92% SOC
4/5 - 32,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg, 55% SOC
5/16 - 33,700 miles,89 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 47% SOC
5/16 - 33.700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 31 deg, 76% SOC
10/5 - 39,300 miles, 100 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 50% SOC
10/6 - 39,400 miles, 61 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 51% SOC
10/7 - 39,500 miles, 80 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 56% SOC
10/15 - 40,000 miles, 71 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 45% SOC
10/30 - 41,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 23 deg, 66% SOC
12/26/16 - 43,000 miles, 110 mohms per LeafDD, 13 deg, 77% SOC
6/10/17 - 49,600 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg, 70% SOC

Sorry this discussion resulted in being in this thread. The question for this thread relates to whether LeafSpy actually
provides a direct measurement of battery resistance, i.e. delta V / delta I.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F, min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

LeftieBiker
Posts: 8915
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:04 pm

I do understand, and we agree on what is needed to be known, but I don't enjoy long "Is so! / Is not!" arguments, so I'll let you have the last word.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1493
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:25 pm

I'd just toss in that resistance goes up as a battery degrades, HX goes down as the battery degrades.

It might be that HX is the inverse of resistance but I haven't seen any documentation saying exactly what HX is and I have no reason to say it is or isn't anything else.
Blue 2012 Leaf 195/65/15 tires, 15" Rims
Silver 2012 Leaf 16" stock wheels
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13004
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:14 am

Sorry to interrupt your conversation but I have a LEAF Spy question...

I now have the recommended LEAF Spy dongle and am still having focus issues with LEAF Spy staying on while car is off but charging. This used to not be an issue. Is there a setting, workaround, etc I should try? I do have the "always on" option enabled.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 8743 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 111.39 Ahr , SOH 96.49, Hx 114.98
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lorenfb
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:07 pm

dhanson865 wrote:I'd just toss in that resistance goes up as a battery degrades, HX goes down as the battery degrades.

It might be that HX is the inverse of resistance but I haven't seen any documentation saying exactly what HX is and I have no reason to say it is or isn't anything else.


My Leaf data today;
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25519&start=50#p523503
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F, min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

lorenfb
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:18 pm

Hopefully Turbo3 will provide info on whether LeafSpy Pro ever provided an actual calculation for battery resistance.
If so, is it still in the app?
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F, min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

Turbo3
Gold Member
Posts: 1965
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:34 pm
Delivery Date: 12 May 2011
Leaf Number: 002191
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:27 pm

lorenfb wrote:Hopefully Turbo3 will provide info on whether LeafSpy Pro ever provided an actual calculation for battery resistance.
If so, is it still in the app?

My understanding, from posts long ago, is that Hx is thought to be related to the inverse of resistance (conductance) which is why it goes down.

Hx is just a value read from the Leaf's BMS ECU. Only the Nissan engineers back in Japan know its real meaning.

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