soldcake
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:47 am
Delivery Date: 19 Jun 2016
Leaf Number: 311414

Re: Changes for the 2019 40kWh Model

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:02 am

Ioniq, with its simple air-cooling TMS, can fast charge on a 50 kW charger at roughly 45 kW all the way to almost 80% SOC, then you'd think someone at Nissan would at least try to fix the rapidgate issue on the 2019.


anyone have info on how soon Ioniq lower QC taper down point as battery ages?
after FW update, my 2016 tapers down QC at about 65% SOC, at 6 temperature bar, SOH 90%, Hx 75%.
Oct-2018 18650mi 72hr 91%SOH 75%Hx
Aug-2018 16169mi 74Ahr 93%Ahr 80%Hx (FW update)
May-2018 15553mi 68Ahr 86%SOH 80%Hx
Sep-2016 1050mi 74Ahr 93%SOH 89%Hx
2016 Leaf White SV + no premium package + rain visor + 40psi :roll:
(BayArea California)

Kieran973
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2018

Re: Changes for the 2019 40kWh Model

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:08 pm

I'm no expert on this, but I wasn't aware that there is any connection between QC tapering and battery age. I've always assumed that the SOC at which QC speeds taper is a fixed number, pre-programmed by the manufacturer. My guess as to why your 2016 is now tapering: in lieu of a battery TMS, the 2018 Leaf also tapers at around 65% (it's actually 63%, I believe), so perhaps Nissan is re-programming the 2016 and 2017 Leafs to taper at this same SOC in order to slow down battery degradation?

You may have already seen this, but here are some fast charging speed graphs for various EVs, the Ioniq and Leaf included. Again, I've always assumed these QC speeds to be more or less fixed constants throughout the life of the car:

https://pushevs.com/2018/05/21/fast-charging-curves/

cwerdna
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Changes for the 2019 40kWh Model

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:53 pm

Kieran973 wrote:I'm no expert on this, but I wasn't aware that there is any connection between QC tapering and battery age. I've always assumed that the SOC at which QC speeds taper is a fixed number, pre-programmed by the manufacturer.

It most definitely does at least w/degradation. Some folks here w/degraded '11 or '12 Leafs have reported slow CHAdeMO speeds beside little regen.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

johnlocke
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Changes for the 2019 40kWh Model

Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:46 pm

Just before I had the battery changed, the QC charge rate started at 85 amps and dropped as the battery charged. It would drop as low as 10-15 amps by 90% charge capacity, slower than an L2 charger. Temps were in the 6-7 bar range so temp wasn't the problem. The problem was the higher internal resistance of the old battery. New battery fixed the problem. As far as I can tell I charge rate is dependent on internal resistance and battery temp, It doesn't appear to be pre-programmed into the LBC at any particular value although the LBC will taper the charge rate as the battery approaches 100%.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

DaveinOlyWA
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Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Changes for the 2019 40kWh Model

Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:03 am

Kieran973 wrote:I'm no expert on this, but I wasn't aware that there is any connection between QC tapering and battery age. I've always assumed that the SOC at which QC speeds taper is a fixed number, pre-programmed by the manufacturer. My guess as to why your 2016 is now tapering: in lieu of a battery TMS, the 2018 Leaf also tapers at around 65% (it's actually 63%, I believe), so perhaps Nissan is re-programming the 2016 and 2017 Leafs to taper at this same SOC in order to slow down battery degradation?

You may have already seen this, but here are some fast charging speed graphs for various EVs, the Ioniq and Leaf included. Again, I've always assumed these QC speeds to be more or less fixed constants throughout the life of the car:

https://pushevs.com/2018/05/21/fast-charging-curves/


Well, you would be the first to report a quicker taper on QC for the 30 kwh pack but have to think its a sign of degradation and any BMS alterations.

If you have LEAF Spy, the charging profile graph shows two lines; one for SOC and the the other for GID%. As degradation increases, these two lines which start basically on top of each other, begins to diverge.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kieran973
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2018

Re: Changes for the 2019 40kWh Model

Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:24 pm

Interesting. Well, I guess the silver lining (if there is any) is that, with a degraded battery, at least it takes fewer kWh of quick charging before you reach your target SOC %, so this may partially counteract the slower QC times brought on by earlier tapering?

Kieran973
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2018

Re: Changes for the 2019 40kWh Model

Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:12 pm

Just to bring the conversation back to the 2019 40 kWh Leaf, I'm still puzzled by this model's very existence. Nissan will supposedly close on the sale of AESC in March 2019 to Envision, so some questions I have, in no particular order of importance:

1. Who makes the 40 kWh battery in the 2019 Leaf? Most people would say AESC, but is there definitive proof of this somewhere?

2. If AESC makes the 40 kWh batteries in the 2019 Leaf, then why would Nissan offer a 40 kWh model only to sell off their 40 kWh battery supply in 5 months?

3. After March 2019, who will supply the 40 kWh battery? Will Nissan simply buy these batteries from Envision that they used to get "for free" (or at least, at cost)? Won't this be more expensive for Nissan, at least initially? Alternatively, will LG Chem supply both the Leaf's 40 kWh and 60 kWh batteries? If so, given Hyundai/Kia's problems in securing enough batteries from LG Chem, what's Nissan's plan for guaranteeing they have enough batteries? Or will Nissan simply discontinue the 40 kWh version after March 2019?

4. This question is more about the 60 kWh version of the Leaf: what is the actual reason for Nissan's vague announcement last month that the long-range Leaf will be released at some point "in the future"? Are there delays in producing the 60 kWh version? Or is this vagueness a kind of marketing strategy that Nissan hopes will prod people into buying up the remaining 40 kWh Leafs over the next few months?

I find the uncertainty around these questions annoying. Contrary to a lot of people's view on MNL that deals on the 2018 Leafs will only get better over the next few months, I actually think we're past the point of peak deals on the 2018 models - supply is dwindling, and Nissan USA is offering less cash back than they did last month even though the 2018s are now a month older. So the longer you wait, the real price of the 2018s goes up. Meanwhile there's still no meaningful information on the price and availability of the 60 kWh Leaf. It could come out very soon, in the next few months, as a low-mid $30K car. It could come out in 2020 as a $40+ car. It could not come out at all. And everything in between....
Last edited by Kieran973 on Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nubo
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Re: Changes for the 2019 40kWh Model

Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:35 pm

Kieran973 wrote:...I'm still puzzled by this model's very existence. Nissan will supposedly close on the sale of AESC in March 2019 to Envision...

3. After March 2019, who will supply the 40 kWh battery? Will Nissan simply buy these batteries from Envision that they used to get "for free" (or at least, at cost)? Won't this be more expensive for Nissan, at least initially? Alternatively, will LG Chem supply both the Leaf's 40 kWh and 60 kWh batteries? If so, given Hyundai/Kia's problems in securing enough batteries from LG Chem, what's Nissan's plan for guaranteeing they have enough batteries? Or will Nissan simply discontinue the 40 kWh version after March 2019? ...


I suspect the batteries will continue to come from the (former) AESC facilities. As you note, LG already cannot meet demand. On top of which, the LEAF type spinel-based cells are unique in not absolutely requiring active cooling. Production of LiMnO cells would require time and resources at LG, and production of active-cooling EVs require time and resources from Nissan.

LiMnO chemistry is becoming increasingly non-competitive for EVs, so I would expect Nissan is the one who will have to change. And the current worldwide cell shortage makes it difficult for them to realize the benefits. I think this is why they are slow in extricating themselves from AESC
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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