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Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:09 am
by internalaudit
We are a few weeks to the unveiling of the new Leaf.

Bolt is not among my choices. I didn't even know except for the lack of adaptive cruise control, that its features were spartan (but range is quite good and something we likely need for a 130-140 mile commute once a week -- we live in Canada so there's winter to consider). I am not gravitating toward anything but I did put down a reservation deposit for a Model 3 with estimated delivery of late 2018 so plenty of time to look at other BEVs.

I don't need to be driving fast and furious so I don't need the Model 3's 5.6 0-60 and it seems a lot of Leaf are quite satisfied except for the battery degradation issues. The Leaf with the hatchback seems also more practical and packages are not as expensive as the Model 3's.

Besides price differential, potential drive unit issues, a few minor ones, and reliance on Service Centers to service and repair Tesla vehicles, what is making your gravitate towards the next gen Leaf?

Thanks.

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:46 am
by DaveinOlyWA
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/08 ... ng-is.html


If you don't want to read the blog, for an "all in price" $35,375 (if the leak is accurate) I have climate package with the heated seats, hybrid heater, REAR HEATER VENTS!!!, the tech package, etc.

With the only drawback being range. With an estimated 38.4 kwh usable, that is 153.6 miles @ 4 miles per kwh.

BUT

that was what I can do with minimal compromise in my 2016 LEAF. The 2018 is supposedly more efficient which would imply that a higher range is likely but who knows, right?

But that is Summer (with AC blasting, driving "somewhat" illegally.... one speeding ticket so far... :? )

In Winter, we are now looking at an average of 3.5 miles per kwh or 134.4 miles per charge.

All of this is VERY much acceptable to me so much so that this is likely to be the first LEAF worth buying IMHO

if....

The degradation is acceptable. What improvements have we to look forward to?

Well, as always, its my opinion that later 2017 builds will give us a hint. We already have 30 kwh packs failing but they all seem to have a 2015 build date.

The S trim was given the 30 kwh pack with VERY strange timing and I think that timing is significant (laugh if you want, you have a LOT of company!) and I think that the longevity of my pack will be a good indicator of what 40 KWHers can expect.

Or you can get an extra 80ish miles of range for a few thousand more with considerably less tech and "maybe" some comfort considerations.


or you can get something that is close in tech, much cooler and nearly double the range for well, the price of the 2017 LEAF AND the 2018...

yeah, like my only question here;

How is this a question? ;)

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:08 am
by evnow
internalaudit wrote: something we likely need for a 130-140 mile commute once a week -- we live in Canada so there's winter to consider ...

You won't get 140 miles in Leaf2 in Winter.

Model 3 will be more expensive compared to Leaf 2 - for similar trim/features. Options on Leaf, for eg are < $1k. Model 3 has options that easily go to $5k.

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:13 am
by DaveinOlyWA
evnow wrote:
internalaudit wrote: something we likely need for a 130-140 mile commute once a week -- we live in Canada so there's winter to consider ...

You won't get 140 miles in Leaf2 in Winter.

Model 3 will be more expensive compared to Leaf 2 - for similar trim/features. Options on Leaf, for eg are < $1k. Model 3 has options that easily go to $5k.


yeah, too close to call that. You can probably make it most of the time but its not Winter per se, you need to worry about. My biggest range hit is not temperature, its precipitation so heavy rain in the middle of Summer will kill your range faster than sub freezing weather. Add snow to the mix and you could be even worse.

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:54 am
by SageBrush
internalaudit wrote:we likely need for a 130-140 mile commute once a week -- we live in Canada so there's winter to consider). .

End of story, so far as the LEAF2 is concerned.

I would even hesitate to try and shoehorn the car into my 90 mile commute in the winter. When new.

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:59 pm
by dgpcolorado
If the OP has reliable workplace charging a LEAF 2 could handle a 140 mile commute, even in winter. Without something like that, no way. Even the 220 mile standard Tesla 3 could have difficulty with that commute in winter conditions. Winter is hard on range IME.

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:28 pm
by Nubo
internalaudit wrote:Besides price differential, potential drive unit issues, a few minor ones, and reliance on Service Centers to service and repair Tesla vehicles, what is making your gravitate towards the next gen Leaf?

Thanks.


- Availability

- Any body damage to Teslas tends to be prohibitively expensive to repair, and Tesla dictates where you're "allowed" to get bodywork done. They have gone so far as to remotely disable the vehicle.

- Overly proprietary attitude towards what YOU can do with YOUR car (see above, but extends to other areas).

- Tesla battery chemistry is inherently less stable. Though they've mitigated that with considerable systems safeguards, you should still be aware. If the car says you need to get out, get out.

- Over-reliance on touch-panel controls, in lieu of simple tactile knobs and buttons. Not conducive to effective manipulation in a moving/bouncing vehicle, or for older drivers who can't shift visual focus as quickly from far to near. Poor human engineering. I've heard they're also implementing voice controls. I asked Siri how well that works. She never got back to me.

- Tesla's active thermal control is a double-edged sword. It runs even when vehicle is off, consuming energy (a.k.a. "vampire load"). I've come back to my un-plugged LEAF after weeks of downtime to find the main pack at practically the same state of charge as when I left it. I like that. Also, part of the reason for Tesla's elaborate thermal control is ultimately the finicky nature of their battery chemistry (see above).

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:05 pm
by Joe6pack
Don't forget financing. If you want to buy your Model 3, then groovy. However, if you want to lease, I don't think Tesla is leasing the M3 right now. I expect Nissan to offer the $199/mo. lease on the S right out of the gate.

As others have said, the LEAF is going to be much better equipped for less money. The trade-off will be range. I've made it 5 years and 51,000 miles with a 2012 LEAF, so I will be good.

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:29 pm
by internalaudit
Nubo wrote:
internalaudit wrote:Besides price differential, potential drive unit issues, a few minor ones, and reliance on Service Centers to service and repair Tesla vehicles, what is making your gravitate towards the next gen Leaf?

Thanks.


- Availability

- Any body damage to Teslas tends to be prohibitively expensive to repair, and Tesla dictates where you're "allowed" to get bodywork done. They have gone so far as to remotely disable the vehicle.

- Overly proprietary attitude towards what YOU can do with YOUR car (see above, but extends to other areas).

- Tesla battery chemistry is inherently less stable. Though they've mitigated that with considerable systems safeguards, you should still be aware. If the car says you need to get out, get out.

- Over-reliance on touch-panel controls, in lieu of simple tactile knobs and buttons. Not conducive to effective manipulation in a moving/bouncing vehicle, or for older drivers who can't shift visual focus as quickly from far to near. Poor human engineering. I've heard they're also implementing voice controls. I asked Siri how well that works. She never got back to me.

- Tesla's active thermal control is a double-edged sword. It runs even when vehicle is off, consuming energy (a.k.a. "vampire load"). I've come back to my un-plugged LEAF after weeks of downtime to find the main pack at practically the same state of charge as when I left it. I like that. Also, part of the reason for Tesla's elaborate thermal control is ultimately the finicky nature of their battery chemistry (see above).


Thanks for enumerating the negatives. One concern I am aware of (based on some readings over at TMC) is Tesla doesn't allow for independent drive unit replacement (say, from a junk shop). Not sure if battery replacements are also disallowed. That means customers will be at the mercy of Tesla once warranty is over or if repair work isn't covered by the warranty.

=====

Thanks everyone. Sounds like I will have to wait for the 50/60 kWh battery pack version of the Leaf to even consider it but since I have late 2018 estimate for a Tesla, I will check out the non-clarity Honda BEV as well as the Korean ones. I doubt the German BEVs are going to be as affordable so I probably won't bother and it doesn't seem like they have gotten rid of the electric gremlins anyway.

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:53 pm
by internalaudit
DaveinOlyWA wrote:http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/08/eeny-meeny-miney-moe-wait-something-is.html


If you don't want to read the blog, for an "all in price" $35,375 (if the leak is accurate) I have climate package with the heated seats, hybrid heater, REAR HEATER VENTS!!!, the tech package, etc.

With the only drawback being range. With an estimated 38.4 kwh usable, that is 153.6 miles @ 4 miles per kwh.

BUT

that was what I can do with minimal compromise in my 2016 LEAF. The 2018 is supposedly more efficient which would imply that a higher range is likely but who knows, right?

But that is Summer (with AC blasting, driving "somewhat" illegally.... one speeding ticket so far... :? )

In Winter, we are now looking at an average of 3.5 miles per kwh or 134.4 miles per charge.

All of this is VERY much acceptable to me so much so that this is likely to be the first LEAF worth buying IMHO

if....

The degradation is acceptable. What improvements have we to look forward to?

Well, as always, its my opinion that later 2017 builds will give us a hint. We already have 30 kwh packs failing but they all seem to have a 2015 build date.

The S trim was given the 30 kwh pack with VERY strange timing and I think that timing is significant (laugh if you want, you have a LOT of company!) and I think that the longevity of my pack will be a good indicator of what 40 KWHers can expect.

Or you can get an extra 80ish miles of range for a few thousand more with considerably less tech and "maybe" some comfort considerations.


or you can get something that is close in tech, much cooler and nearly double the range for well, the price of the 2017 LEAF AND the 2018...

yeah, like my only question here;

How is this a question? ;)


Interesting read David. I sure hope Nissan announces a 60 kWh battery version and an estimated delivery date for that. Here in Ontario, Canada, we currently have a very generous government incentive of about $11k USD after tax but if the incumbent political party loses the June 2018 election, that incentive may be removed by the winning party.

Quite a few Tesla reservation holders who don't meet the full $7,500 credit (and are more cost conscious and practical) may switch over if a 50-60 kWh battery is what they want.