Dooglas
Posts: 230
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:49 pm

joeDees wrote:Dumb question just to show how little I know about the spark, is the "Chevy Spark EV LT" all electric or hybrid (important because under the program I think you only get $7500 for hybrids instead of $9500 for all-electric).

The Chevy Spark EV is an EV (a battery powered electric vehicle). And if the "program" you are talking about is the federal tax credit - it applies to BEVs (battery powered electric cars) and PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) when purchased new. The full credit on an EV is $7,500. PHEV credits are determined by a formula and most are about half of the EV credit. The Spark is no longer available new, so no tax credit. Below is a table of current federal credits.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30

cwerdna
Posts: 8420
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:48 am

Yep, the Spark EV was a pure electric and a CA compliance car, sold only in CA and eventually OR. It was discontinued eventually in favor of the Bolt.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/31/chevr ... ev-is-out/
https://insideevs.com/2016-chevrolet-sp ... ds-august/

Chevy still sells the ICEV non-hybrid version of it. There was never a hybrid version.

I think the program the OP's referring to is viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26164. I found a page on it at https://valleycan.org/vehicle-replacement/#eligibility. I don't live in that part of CA nor would I be eligible from an income POV.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

TheLostPetrol
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:19 am
Delivery Date: 21 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 307105
Location: Greater Chicagoland

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:40 pm

WetEV wrote:Battery degradation, like most chemical reactions, follows Arrhenius's equation.

What is the chemical reaction that causes Leaf battery degradation? I've seen discussions on MNL of 12 V lead-acid degradation, in terms of the temporaily reversible formation of a certain chemical species, but never the equivalent for Li ion.
2017-12-16 New Prius Prime
2018-02-21 Used 2015 LEAF SV Mfd 2014-07 In-service 2015-02-27
Date mi AHr SOH Hx QC L1/L2
2018-02-21 26,938 60.22 96.98% 90.73% 1 988
2018-07-01 31,601 58.05 93.48% 87.03% 11 1223
2018-10-01 35,428 55.63 89.58% 82.13% 16 1440

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 9875
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:46 pm

TheLostPetrol wrote:
WetEV wrote:Battery degradation, like most chemical reactions, follows Arrhenius's equation.

What is the chemical reaction that causes Leaf battery degradation? I've seen discussions on MNL of 12 V lead-acid degradation, in terms of the temporaily reversible formation of a certain chemical species, but never the equivalent for Li ion.


He's over-simplifying this far too much. There are likely thresholds and other factors involved, not just reaction rates.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

joeDees
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:46 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2018
Location: I'm In the HOT Central CA sun

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:17 pm

Just got confirmation (otherwise known as "nightmare") from local Nissan dealer:

$8027 and some cents to replace Leaf battery (and that might not even include sales tax).

I made the comment "guess that confirms it, they really did raise the price" and the reply was yeah, just recently.

D'OH!

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 9875
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:43 pm

You may be able to do a little negotiating, like for $8000.00 even, tax included, or just the quoted price, tax included. Small comfort, I know.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

joeDees
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:46 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2018
Location: I'm In the HOT Central CA sun

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:48 pm

joeDees wrote:
$8027 and some cents to replace Leaf battery (and that might not even include sales tax).



And with that, I waive the white flag and declare my question answered.

Perhaps one day, if the program still exists, I will think of a way around the problems, but for now, it just aint happenin' :(

Thanks all for your input, your a great group and I think you saved me a load of trouble!

WetEV
Posts: 2372
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:52 pm

TheLostPetrol wrote:
WetEV wrote:Battery degradation, like most chemical reactions, follows Arrhenius's equation.

What is the chemical reaction that causes Leaf battery degradation? I've seen discussions on MNL of 12 V lead-acid degradation, in terms of the temporaily reversible formation of a certain chemical species, but never the equivalent for Li ion.


http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... ion_to_die

There are multiple reactions, and isn't as simple as lead acid battery sulfation.

Arrhenius's equation does a fairly good at predicting the differences between battery life in different climates.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

Newporttom
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:57 pm
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 6194
Location: Saint Johns, FL

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs? (SOLVED!)

Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:45 pm

I'm in a very warm climate (jax Florida), and now have a Lizard pack replacement that has held up very well compared to the original one. I lost first bar at 21k, then again at 30K, 38.4K, and final bar at 48.4K.

I'm now at 37K on the Lizard and 32 months, and have not lost a bar yet. It might happen soon. Only real difference is this one is driven 5 days a week, whereas first one would be in a hot garage more than this one.

But..... as I was reading your driving scenario, I'm saying "Don't do it". If you have to ask (in my opinion), it's a No.
2012 Nissan Leaf SL - Cayenne Red
Accepted 12/14/11 - Traded in 9/16/2018

2018 Nissan Leaf SV - Gun Metal Gray
Bought Sep 16, 2018

Evoforce
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:46 pm

cwerdna wrote:
joeDees wrote:
Evoforce wrote:I have to agree that Lizard packs do not (hold up) any better than previous batteries in hot climates based on my direct experience. I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system. Please heed the warnings of those who live in hot climates unless you really don't care about a shortened battery life. While the Leaf is a nice car in every other way, battery degradation is it's Achilles heel. In Arizona, a low 10 bar car will degrade to an 8 bar car in 7-9 months.


Hmmm. So, since yesterday I've learned replacement batteries, which were a big part of my plan are now WAAAAY more expensive then I had thought and now Lizard batteries, another big part of my plan, don't hold up well either. Whatta day!

Well, there's another nail in the coffin for my plan!

Disagree with Evoforce's 1st sentence and I think GerryAZ would, as well.

When the Leaf had only been out ~21 months, we already had a 4 bar loser in Phoenix, Blue494 at http://web.archive.org/web/201601280026 ... hp?t=10040.

See GerryAZ's posts at viewtopic.php?p=509371#p509371 and the 4 bar loser a 5/2013 built (same as mine) Leaf in Phoenix.

I personally know of folks in the SF Bay Area, including those in the South Bay (where I am) who have lost 4 bars on the original crap pack ('11 or '12 Leaf), some within the 5 year/60K capacity warranty and another who missed the warranty expiration, so he no longer has a Leaf. He got a Clarity BEV instead. I'm still at 11 bars and still awhile away from hitting 10 even though I'm past the 5 year mark of the capacity warranty.

I'm not aware of any 4 bar losers on the '15 "lizard" pack yet: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532. The worst are 3 bar losers.


Disagree, with some of what you have said. I have personally done testing on several cars and in depth testing using leaf spy. I even have used my personal vehicles to pace old versus new lizard batteries. Some of my family have also owned Leafs. I have also tested other Leaf's outside of my family besides my own two personal vehicles as well as tracked those of my family. Gerry's result on his latest personal vehicle related to his first were not done concurrently. He is also having better than average result for the climate. I believe (and I could be incorrect on this) if I am speaking of the correct Gerry, he also retired from Nissan and worked directly on development of the Leaf. He may be overly optimistic. I would assume that Gerry also babied his second car after experience with the first. Having said all that, I generally find him spot on. Currently he is relating to his own experience and that differs a little from the many Leaf owners that I know in this climate. He may also be treating his battery as good as possible but he is still more than 20% depleted (the last I knew) on his Lizard battery. Maybe he will get an extra 6 months to a year longer?
Last edited by Evoforce on Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

Return to “New Members & Newbie Questions”