GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1368
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:39 pm

I may be the only one on the forum who feels this way, but I will never buy (or lease) an EV that requires active cooling to keep its battery alive. I routinely park for extended time in locations where I cannot plug in so active cooling would be of no benefit while parked (and might even discharge the battery trying to keep it cool). I suspect that battery chemistries which require active cooling would deteriorate in my climate more while parked than the Leaf battery does. Active cooling is probably a benefit if a car will be driven long distances each day with multiple quick charging sessions, but I have other vehicles for long trips.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

SageBrush
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:09 pm

GerryAZ wrote:I may be the only one on the forum who feels this way, but I will never buy (or lease) an EV that requires active cooling to keep its battery alive. I routinely park for extended time in locations where I cannot plug in so active cooling would be of no benefit while parked (and might even discharge the battery trying to keep it cool). I suspect that battery chemistries which require active cooling would deteriorate in my climate more while parked than the Leaf battery does. Active cooling is probably a benefit if a car will be driven long distances each day with multiple quick charging sessions, but I have other vehicles for long trips.
Phoenix is a tough go for sure, and your use profile just adds to the difficulties.

Tesla owners seem to do quite well in Phoenix like environments although I don't know if any of them have your parking behaviors. If you can find parking that is shaded when you arrive the average ambient temperature in the summer is 90F. That is nasty but I don't know if active TMS systems operate at that temperature when parked. And of course we can hope that the charging infrastructure will continue to expand. For now you may be right about active TMS in your hands, but passive TMS in Phoenix has already proved to be a failure. Things can only get better, right ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

User avatar
LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4205
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Boca Raton FL

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:30 pm

I just skimmed this whole thread because we need TMS in Florida but it wasn't clear to me... has Nissan said whether the new version of the LEAF will have TMS? Or is it still all speculation at this point?
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1368
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:35 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GerryAZ wrote:I may be the only one on the forum who feels this way, but I will never buy (or lease) an EV that requires active cooling to keep its battery alive. I routinely park for extended time in locations where I cannot plug in so active cooling would be of no benefit while parked (and might even discharge the battery trying to keep it cool). I suspect that battery chemistries which require active cooling would deteriorate in my climate more while parked than the Leaf battery does. Active cooling is probably a benefit if a car will be driven long distances each day with multiple quick charging sessions, but I have other vehicles for long trips.
Phoenix is a tough go for sure, and your use profile just adds to the difficulties.

Tesla owners seem to do quite well in Phoenix like environments although I don't know if any of them have your parking behaviors. If you can find parking that is shaded when you arrive the average ambient temperature in the summer is 90F. That is nasty but I don't know if active TMS systems operate at that temperature when parked. And of course we can hope that the charging infrastructure will continue to expand. For now you may be right about active TMS in your hands, but passive TMS in Phoenix has already proved to be a failure. Things can only get better, right ?


I guess I should have mentioned that I do park in the shade when parking for extended time. I do not consider passive TMS (as you call it) to be a failure because my 2015 is doing quite well. I have 46,400 miles and 31 months of use with only one capacity bar loss in spite of above average temperatures for Phoenix the past two summers. The 2011 had already lost one capacity bar on the replacement battery by the time of the crash at 42 months and 50,000 miles.
Last edited by GerryAZ on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

Evoforce
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:54 pm

GerryAZ wrote:I may be the only one on the forum who feels this way, but I will never buy (or lease) an EV that requires active cooling to keep its battery alive. I routinely park for extended time in locations where I cannot plug in so active cooling would be of no benefit while parked (and might even discharge the battery trying to keep it cool). I suspect that battery chemistries which require active cooling would deteriorate in my climate more while parked than the Leaf battery does. Active cooling is probably a benefit if a car will be driven long distances each day with multiple quick charging sessions, but I have other vehicles for long trips.


The airport parking has 120 volt plugs for vehicles and I don't know the additional or other long term parking that you do. I might disagree that other car chemistry's won't hold up better than Leaf in hot temperatures even without active cooling. But... they have been smart to provide active cooling. I agree that having to cool or heat the battery is not as efficient.

Nissan has not been successful with changing chemistry and not cooling our batteries. They need to provide cooling to customers now, and continue in their Experimental Department to maybe develop a non thermal battery management, if that is even possible. If (or when) they perfect it, then put it in our cars.

Most cars only need a 120 volt outlet to plug in for long periods of non use or inactivity. Hopefully soon, you can get rid of your ice for an affordable long distance all electric vehicle. I, myself, am wanting an all electric Pickup truck.
Last edited by Evoforce on Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 51,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

Evoforce
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:54 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:I just skimmed this whole thread because we need TMS in Florida but it wasn't clear to me... has Nissan said whether the new version of the LEAF will have TMS? Or is it still all speculation at this point?


No TMS.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 51,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

Evoforce
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:11 pm

GerryAZ wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GerryAZ wrote:I may be the only one on the forum who feels this way, but I will never buy (or lease) an EV that requires active cooling to keep its battery alive. I routinely park for extended time in locations where I cannot plug in so active cooling would be of no benefit while parked (and might even discharge the battery trying to keep it cool). I suspect that battery chemistries which require active cooling would deteriorate in my climate more while parked than the Leaf battery does. Active cooling is probably a benefit if a car will be driven long distances each day with multiple quick charging sessions, but I have other vehicles for long trips.
Phoenix is a tough go for sure, and your use profile just adds to the difficulties.

Tesla owners seem to do quite well in Phoenix like environments although I don't know if any of them have your parking behaviors. If you can find parking that is shaded when you arrive the average ambient temperature in the summer is 90F. That is nasty but I don't know if active TMS systems operate at that temperature when parked. And of course we can hope that the charging infrastructure will continue to expand. For now you may be right about active TMS in your hands, but passive TMS in Phoenix has already proved to be a failure. Things can only get better, right ?


I guess I should have mentioned that I do park in the shade when parking for extended time. I do not consider passive TMS (as you call it) to be a failure because my 2015 is doing quite well. I have 46,600 miles and 31 months of use with only one capacity bar loss in spite of above average temperatures for Phoenix the past two summers. The 2011 had already lost one capacity bar on the replacement battery by the time of the crash at 42 months and 50,000 miles.


While you are doing well compared to others, you have lost over 15%. The Nissan battery starts out with some headroom and the first bar is double the rest. If you extrapolate, you will lose 2 more bars in even less time that it took you to lose the first. That all appears to be an acceptable rate to you... for many others it is not. Tesla, for example, is projected to lose 20% in 25-30 years.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 51,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1607
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:17 am

Evoforce wrote:While you are doing well compared to others, you have lost over 15%. The Nissan battery starts out with some headroom and the first bar is double the rest. If you extrapolate, you will lose 2 more bars in even less time that it took you to lose the first. That all appears to be an acceptable rate to you... for many others it is not. Tesla, for example, is projected to lose 20% in 25-30 years.


The expected loss is not linear. It is much steeper at first, and then levels off to a more linear rate. This is the real reason that the first bar is twice the capacity of the rest. The loss of bars should - in theory - be linear in time.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

Joe6pack
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:57 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 025854

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:26 am

That all appears to be an acceptable rate to you... for many others it is not. Tesla, for example, is projected to lose 20% in 25-30 years.


I will eat that Tesla battery if it's any good after 25-30 years. That's nonsense.
2012 Leaf SL leased October 4th, 2012
Braselton, GA

SageBrush
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:42 am

Joe6pack wrote:
That all appears to be an acceptable rate to you... for many others it is not. Tesla, for example, is projected to lose 20% in 25-30 years.


I will eat that Tesla battery if it's any good after 25-30 years. That's nonsense.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =154312675
I would not care to extrapolate out to 25 years but clearly the Tesla battery in a BEV is in a class of its own for now.

Image
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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