Dooglas
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:02 pm

SageBrush wrote:A 24 kWh LEAF battery is over $8000 to replace and will be hobbled in 2-3 years, below 60 miles range in about 5-6 years or ~ 45k miles. As I said, your posts are BS

I agree that flydiver seems to have let his complaining get well ahead of his understanding of the Prius hybrid drive. My wife has owned a Prius V for nearly 6 years and my son has owned a Prius for 10. No problems with the battery or electrical control systems on either vehicle. On the other hand, your post upbraiding flydiver gave me a chuckle. I have owned 2 Leafs now for 3 years or more in each instance. Neither experienced any measurable loss in range within that period of time. Will the current one eventually show some loss of battery capacity? I'm sure it will, but hardly according to the predictions you lay out above. (if you were right, of course, I would receive a new battery for free under the capacity warranty, but that seems unlikely)

Now, regarding the OP's question. A 2012 Leaf with 9 bars for about $8K. In other words, the old battery chemistry with an out of warranty degraded battery. Run, don't walk, away from that one.
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30 - purchased

SageBrush
Posts: 3263
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:34 pm

Dooglas wrote:
SageBrush wrote:A 24 kWh LEAF battery is over $8000 to replace and will be hobbled in 2-3 years, below 60 miles range in about 5-6 years or ~ 45k miles. As I said, your posts are BS

I agree that flydiver seems to have let his complaining get well ahead of his understanding of the Prius hybrid drive. My wife has owned a Prius V for nearly 6 years and my son has owned a Prius for 10. No problems with the battery or electrical control systems on either vehicle. On the other hand, your post upbraiding flydiver gave me a chuckle. I have owned 2 Leafs now for 3 years or more in each instance. Neither experienced any measurable loss in range within that period of time. Will the current one eventually show some loss of battery capacity? I'm sure it will, but hardly according to the predictions you lay out above. (if you were right, of course, I would receive a new battery for free under the capacity warranty, but that seems unlikely)
.

My statements were meant to be taken as US averages. The PNW has a better experience. By the same token I did not mention the Prius stories of 500k miles on the original battery. They exist but they are no where near the norm.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Dooglas
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:37 pm

SageBrush wrote:My statements were meant to be taken as US averages. The PNW has a better experience. By the same token I did not mention the Prius stories of 500k miles on the original battery. They exist but they are no where near the norm.

I understand that there are examples of poor and exceptional results with every vehicle ever made. And I understand there is faster capacity loss of Leaf packs in places like the Southwest than in places like the cooler and more temperate Northwest. I do not accept that 30-40% capacity loss in 2-3 years and 50-60% capacity loss in 5-6 years represents the US average for the '13 to '16 Leaf. Would that not mean that the majority of Leaf owners already have or soon will receive a new battery pack under the capacity warranty (and that is not to mention the 30kwh pack with the extended capacity warranty)? You would have to show me actual statistics which document that in order to convince me. That just goes so far beyond my own experience or what I see, hear, and read.
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30 - purchased

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:01 pm

Going by the relative numbers of 12, 11, 10 and 9- bar losses among used Leafs, my guess would be a rough average of 15% capacity loss after 3 years for 4/2013 through 2014 Leafs, after removing both Cold and Hot regions. The 2015 would be more like ~12%. If you average in the Leafs with Canary packs, though, the average goes up quite a bit.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 3263
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:35 pm

Dooglas wrote:
SageBrush wrote:My statements were meant to be taken as US averages. The PNW has a better experience. By the same token I did not mention the Prius stories of 500k miles on the original battery. They exist but they are no where near the norm.

I understand that there are examples of poor and exceptional results with every vehicle ever made. And I understand there is faster capacity loss of Leaf packs in places like the Southwest than in places like the cooler and more temperate Northwest. I do not accept that 30-40% capacity loss in 2-3 years and 50-60% capacity loss in 5-6 years represents the US average for the '13 to '16 Leaf. Would that not mean that the majority of Leaf owners already have or soon will receive a new battery pack under the capacity warranty (and that is not to mention the 30kwh pack with the extended capacity warranty)? You would have to show me actual statistics which document that in order to convince me. That just goes so far beyond my own experience or what I see, hear, and read.

I was thinking more in the 30-35% battery capacity loss after 5-6 years. I think I confused you by using miles range remaining with a 24 kWh pack in mind while you were thinking of a 30 kWh pack. I agree with leftie's numbers.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

bocarat
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:01 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jan 2019

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:25 pm

Thx for the comments. A lot of good info but surprised to see the attitudes...:o(

Note I am in NE Florida, didn't mention that before, not sure of the 26k mile car's history.

Anyway, I think sagebrush has a valid point about Prius's - expensive stuff MIGHT go wrong. I have seen that myself - a 2005 and a 2011, and a 2006 Highlander. all have have been bought used with 110k+ miles on them, all have been bombproof until 2 of the 3 had their regen brake unit die. Ouch. $2300. Each. But otherwise zero repairs in 50k miles apiece

I don't think the $$$/KWH argument matters. It's pure $$$/vehicle-value. If battery dies and I spend $2k on an $8k Prius, I still have a car good for 200k+ miles, net value of $6k. With an $8k Leaf....battery dies, totalled.

However, I think the important take away here is that you MIGHT get a nasty surprise with the Prius. I have several friends who swear they will never by another car, even though I got bit. BUT, you WILL eventually lose your Leaf, and not at 300k miles either,

I read a few answers on this but not sure I follow.....if my Leaf has 3 bars and 20% SOH (or whatever), does it still take the same number of KWH to charge it to (reduced) capacity? Because if so, that's a deal breaker unless you can charge for free, and also means that over the life of the car, $$/mile goes up over the life of the battery. I.e. the vehicle is dead to you as a money saver long before the battery dies.

Found another one: 2013 S, 64k miles, new battery pack a year ago, 12 bars, unknown SOH, $7900.

How long IS the battery warranty of a 2013?

Thx again, this has been a great thread.

GerryAZ
Gold Member
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Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:04 pm

Battery warranty on 2013 is 5 years or 60,000 miles for capacity loss (8 bars) and 8 years or 100,000 miles for defects not including gradual capacity loss. Energy from the wall to charge from dead to full drops as battery capacity drops. There is a slight drop in efficiency as the battery capacity drops because internal resistance increases. The efficiency loss is only a few percent so it should not be a significant concern.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 10612
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:06 pm

The 2013 has a 5 year/60k mile (strictly enforced) capacity warranty and an 8 year warranty against manufacturing defects in the pack. Those manifest as bad cells.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

macnut
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:14 am
Leaf Number: 023581
Location: Victoria, BC

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:15 pm

In round numbers .....

Time required to charge from empty to a full 12 charge bars in a tired 6 capacity bar Leaf would be about 2 hours on L2.

(Compared to about 4 hours when new with 12 capacity bars.)
2012 SL Pearl White
06/2012 build date (42K miles, 10 bars, 74.54% SOH, 55.34%Hx, 49.42Ahr @ 09/2018)
Nokian WR G3
Tor's heater mod

User avatar
mwalsh
Posts: 9599
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Concerns about older Leafs (Leaves?)

Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:25 am

bocarat wrote:Found another one: 2013 S, 64k miles, new battery pack a year ago, 12 bars, unknown SOH, $7900.


So you can see that your trade-off is going to be higher miles against greater range. I personally would still go for the higher mileage car with the newer pack. After all, both cars will now be out of factory B2B and drive train warranty (unless they are on an extended one), so it is really a roll of the dice. That said, with the exception of the battery packs, many have had few to zero mechanical or electronic defects with their cars. I've only had one issue (while still under warranty) where I needed the front passenger side hub replaced and I'm now at 78,000 miles.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 78,000 miles
2015 pack on 12/30/15
Tinted windows
Bridgestone Ecopia 422+ tires
L1 EVSE upgrade
FIAMM horns
Superbright LED lighting
2013 sun visors
LED shifter
Heated seats
GT-R map lamp lenses
Altima illuminated door switches

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