GRA
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:29 pm

smkettner wrote:Unless all the cars are self driving it would seem less disruptive to share a single cord.
And then there is cost..... I would rather have 10 cords to ??? probably half or less as many wireless.

The question is, how likely are the cords to be there, and working? I've seen more than a few vandalized or accidentally damaged EVSEs, and wireless buried in the pavement/curb reduces/eliminates those issues. Once we get autonomous cars that can go find the nearest charging station, it's a no-brainer - every time I see Tesla's robotic charging 'arm' I just think Falcon Wing Doors issues x 10 - 100. As wireless charging and that level of autonomy look likely to appear about the same time, might as well start providing the infrastructure now.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
Posts: 7042
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:23 pm

Fair enough. My company has about 30 cords at various properties that have been in place five years.
Never vandalism.

As far as working they have been pretty good. Always the controller or a wire issue which applies same to wireless.
For the same money there could be more cords so even if there were issues there should remain more working.
JMHO

I am not against wireless for others. I just see increased vehicle cost, increased EVSE cost, reduced efficiency.
No thanks for the automatic arm. Although that is Tesla's cost so it is up to them and reliability issues that may or may not exist.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:49 pm

Via GCC:
Update: SAE J2954 wireless charging validation to 11kW, Recommended Practice to enable autonomous vehicle parking and charging in 2017
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/02 ... j2954.html

. . .
    The upcoming SAE J2954 Recommended Practice will enable a seamless, automated standard methodology to charge for individual vehicles to fleets of autonomous vehicles and their infrastructures. All of this with a specification to charge with high efficiencies over an air gap of 250mm (10 inches).

    —Jesse Schneider, chair of the SAE J2954 task force

For the infrastructure side, a common location for the wireless charging ground assembly—in the parking lot—will be determined in 2017. In the published SAE TIR J2954, alignment is done through magnetic field triangulation using either the existing charging coils or an auxiliary antenna. SAE J2954 is planning to make a decision regarding alignment in 2017 as a basis for all infrastructure ground assemblies.

The SAE Communications Taskforce is assisting the Wireless Charging with an ecosystem for wireless communications, to allow a seamless vehicle to wireless infrastructure and later vehicle to ground assembly. SAE is utilizing IEEE 802.11(n) as a basis for this communications, which is similar to DSRC (or IEEE802.11p). The goal is that the vehicle navigation system can first locate an available wireless charging parking spot, lead you to a wireless charging point and SAE J2954 would help align your car in the parking spot, and finally wirelessly charge. As a concept, payment could be also automated through the same communications hub with no interaction required from the customer except pre-authorizing the payment. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7716
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:28 pm

Via GCC:
SAE publishes J2954 Recommended Practice (RP) enabling wireless charging to 11 kW
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/11/20171130-j2954.html

SAE International published SAE J2954 Recommended Practice (RP), providing the first worldwide specification for wireless power transfer (WPT) for electric vehicles up to 11 kW power levels (WPT 3). Following the previous Technical Information Report J2954, with power levels up to WPT 2 (7.7 kW), 11 kW wireless charging is a big step towards commercialization for electric vehicles. (Earlier post.) . . .
Last edited by GRA on Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

arnis
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:52 pm

No less than 770W of heat losses? No thank you. Some people charge their vehicle at that rate :lol:
I would rather want something to stick the copper in for me. Something like a snake prototype from Tesla.

Take an electric cookstove, turn the small plate on to half power. Wait 30 seconds. Feel the heat :geek:
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:40 pm

arnis wrote:No less than 770W of heat losses? No thank you. Some people charge their vehicle at that rate :lol:
I would rather want something to stick the copper in for me. Something like a snake prototype from Tesla.

Take an electric cookstove, turn the small plate on to half power. Wait 30 seconds. Feel the heat :geek:

You're an early adopter, and thus not representative of mainstream buyers, who will opt for convenience over efficiency any time the cost is minimal. If that weren't the case there would be no TV/garage door remotes or microwave ovens.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:35 pm

GRA wrote:You're an early adopter, and thus not representative of mainstream buyers, who will opt for convenience over efficiency any time the cost is minimal. If that weren't the case there would be no TV/garage door remotes or microwave ovens.
TV remotes? Agreed. The other two? You've got it wrong.

Garage door remote control: A gasoline car would use more energy idling while the driver got out to open or close the garage door than the 500W electric motor needs to do the job (and the small draw at all other times does not make up the difference). Even for a Nissan LEAF, the vehicle uses more than 500W just to sit there, so it would use more energy due to the additional time the energy was being used.

Microwave oven: Even though a microwave oven only has a real-world energy efficiency of about 50% (AC electrical power to microwave power) and the heating element of an electric oven or electric cooktop has an energy efficiency of 100% (AC electrical power to heat), the microwave oven is more efficient for nearly every small food-heating task than an electric cooktop or an electric oven or even an electric toaster oven. The reason is that the microwaves in a microwave oven heats the food directly while the electric heating element in an oven or cooktop heats something else which then heats the food. As a result, the microwave oven saves energy two ways: It heats less material and therefore heats for less time. The simple reality is that a microwave oven can tackle some tasks such as baking a single potato with about ONE-FORTH as much energy as a traditional oven.

So, yeah, microwave ovens and garage door openers would exist even if they did not offer any additional convenience.

But electrifying transportation in the US (or the world) will require a massive increase in electricity generation. That additional electricity will not come easily, cheaply, or without significant damage to the environment. As such, lossy solutions will be limited to a small fraction of the overall transportation solution. Because of the challenges we face as we move toward electrification will preclude (prevent) inefficient solutions from achieving significant fractions of the market.

As everyone can clearly see with the hydrogen fiasco, even massive government subsidies do not change this reality.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:02 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:You're an early adopter, and thus not representative of mainstream buyers, who will opt for convenience over efficiency any time the cost is minimal. If that weren't the case there would be no TV/garage door remotes or microwave ovens.
TV remotes? Agreed. The other two? You've got it wrong.

Garage door remote control: A gasoline car would use more energy idling while the driver got out to open or close the garage door than the 500W electric motor needs to do the job (and the small draw at all other times does not make up the difference). Even for a Nissan LEAF, the vehicle uses more than 500W just to sit there, so it would use more energy due to the additional time the energy was being used.

Interesting. I wonder how much the life-cycle energy of building and disposing of the motor, gears, rails and controllers would add to that.

RegGuheert wrote:Microwave oven: Even though a microwave oven only has a real-world energy efficiency of about 50% (AC electrical power to microwave power) and the heating element of an electric oven or electric cooktop has an energy efficiency of 100% (AC electrical power to heat), the microwave oven is more efficient for nearly every small food-heating task than an electric cooktop or an electric oven or even an electric toaster oven. The reason is that the microwaves in a microwave oven heats the food directly while the electric heating element in an oven or cooktop heats something else which then heats the food. As a result, the microwave oven saves energy two ways: It heats less material and therefore heats for less time. The simple reality is that a microwave oven can tackle some tasks such as baking a single potato with about ONE-FORTH as much energy as a traditional oven. <snip>

Oh, I agree that an electric heating element is very wasteful. However, here in the Bay Area most houses and apartments, including every one I've ever lived in (something approaching 20, last time I thought about counting them) use gas for heating and cooking, so my comments were colored by that experience. After all, the local utility is Pacific Gas and Electric. Maybe it's just that I tend to live in older housing stock, and there are certainly newer developments that advertise AEK, but space heating and cooking with electricity are a poor choice, especially when that electricity is being generated by gas. In my case, if I've just got to (re)heat something for a few minutes, like soup or pasta, I use the microwave even though I have a gas range, for exactly the reason I said; it's more convenient (faster).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:58 pm

Gas cooking is even less efficient than electric resistance cooking. Do you always prefer fossil fuels over electricity? (Car, range, oven, water heater...)
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

rmay635703
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:09 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Gas cooking is even less efficient than electric resistance cooking. Do you always prefer fossil fuels over electricity? (Car, range, oven, water heater...)


I cook with gas mainly in winter, the flame is 85-95% efficient

Thus the heat that doesn’t cook the food goes to heat and humidify my apartment.

Same goes with my water heater, most of the “lost” heat is dumped into the living space

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