tkdbrusco
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Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
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2013 Lost first bar with higher readings?

Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:09 am

So a friend of mine with a 2013 Leaf (MFG 6/13) just lost his first bar two days ago. He doesn't have a battery app so I took a reading. What I found was kind of strange. I wasn't able to take a reading at 100% so had to extrapolate max GIDS and kWh.

This was taken about a day and a half after the bar loss. The car had been charged to 100% twice since then.

Miles 37100
95 GIDS
7.38 kwh
45.49% SOC
84.53% SOH
83.34% HX
56.01 AHR
71.6 Degrees

If I look at Ahr, there's no way he should have lost a bar. If you look at HX, perhaps, SOH, possibly, but if you extrapolate out the 95 GIDS or 7.38 kWh to a 100% charge, He'd be at 215 GIDS or 16kwh respectively? Which seems way low for only a first bar drop. I feel like he should be somewhere like 235 or 18.8 kWh for having just lost his first capacity bar.

What is stranger is that if you compare his readings to my most recent on my 2015 (MFG 4/14) some of my readings are very close to his, but I'm reporting 267 GIDS at my last full charge. My car is only technically 10 months older based on MFG date and has roughly the same mileage at 36300. My readings are 267 GIDS, 20.69kwh, 97.19% SOC, 85.96 SOH, 86.84 HX, 56.95AHR. So by the SOH, HX, and AHR numbers, I should be about 1.5-2% capacity away from losing a bar, but if you look at my GIDS/Kwh, I'm at least 6% away?

Anyone have any thoughts or insights?
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

baustin
Posts: 491
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:23 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2015
Leaf Number: 402162
Location: North Las Vegas, NV

Re: 2013 Lost first bar with higher readings?

Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:57 pm

This was the reading on my car about a week after the first bar dropped.

Oct 11, 2015 - AHr=52.06, SOH=79%, Hx=74.56%, odo=21,536 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1145

This was the reading about a week after the second bar dropped.

Jun 24, 2016 - AHr=47.74, SOH=73%, Hx=66.57%, odo=23,745 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1569

The vehicle was manufactured in January 2013, spent it first two years in Georgia, was auctioned after lease return and brought to Las Vegas. I got it in March 2015. It dropped the first bar in October 2015, and the second bar in June 2016.

Sep 28, 2016 - AHr=43.92 SOH=67% Hx=60.46% odo=24,065 miles QC=4 L1/L2=1701
Jun 24, 2016 - AHr=47.74, SOH=73%, Hx=66.57%, odo=23,745 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1569
Apr 24, 2016 - AHr=48.58, SOH=74%, Hx=68.12%, odo=23,323 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1478
Feb 23, 2016 - AHr=50.11, SOH=76%, Hx=70.96%, odo=22,874 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1393
Dec 30, 2015 - AHr=51.40, SOH=78%, Hx=73.35%, odo=22,503 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1302
Oct 11, 2015 - AHr=52.06, SOH=79%, Hx=74.56%, odo=21,536 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1145
Jul 24, 2015 - AHr=55.14, SOH=84%, Hx=80.29%, odo=19,765 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=926
May 16, 2015 - AHr=57.28, SOH=87%, Hx=84.50%, odo=19,338 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=788
Mar 27, 2015 - AHr=58.57, SOH=89%, Hx=87.04%, odo=18,539 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=701
2013 Leaf SV - Cayenne Red - QC Port - LED Headlights

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7192
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2013 Lost first bar with higher readings?

Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:43 am

tkdbrusco wrote:My readings are 267 GIDS, 20.69kwh, 97.19% SOC, 85.96 SOH, 86.84 HX, 56.95AHR. So by the SOH, HX, and AHR numbers, I should be about 1.5-2% capacity away from losing a bar, but if you look at my GIDS/Kwh, I'm at least 6% away?

Anyone have any thoughts or insights?

I don't go by the kWh number. I don't think that's useful. From the app help, it mentions that it's calculating by the # of gids * the Wh/gids setting in Settings/Battery panel. Since you can change that from the default of 77.5 Wh/Gids.. If so, who knows how accurate this default or any other setting is or how accurate the car really is in terms of nn Wh/gids, esp. given different battery conditions, discharge levels, temps, etc.?

FWIW, my '13 Leaf manufactured 5/2013 usually reaches about 248 to 252 gids on a full charge.

My most recent reading has these stats:
AHr: 57.66
SOH: 88%
Hx: 86.91%
odo: 38,346 miles

I don't care about the % SoC number either.

I still have all 12 bars (bought this used Leaf over a year ago) but I'm creeping closer to losing a bar.

edit: I confirmed what the app help says about the Wh/Gids setting vs. kWh it displays. Given a certain # of current gids, the kWh number will go up or down, if I raise or lower the Wh/Gids setting.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

tkdbrusco
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:46 am
Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
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Re: 2013 Lost first bar with higher readings?

Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:56 am

I guess that's where my confusion is. Why is my AHR and HX low compared to the GIDS that I get at full charge? What is the determining factor for the bar drop?
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

SageBrush
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2013 Lost first bar with higher readings?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:02 am

tkdbrusco wrote: Why is my AHR and HX low compared to the GIDS that I get at full charge? What is the determining factor for the bar drop?

No one outside of Nissan knows. Nissan does not say and it has not been figured out.

IN GENERAL, Ahr and SOH correlate, and correlate to bar drops. There is however a good 5% variance seen across the car population and in the same car between these values. I think the best we can do for now is just accept that amount of uncertainty and be glad it is not more.

If you have a large difference between values then a range test from a full charge down to LBW that takes into account the miles/kWh during the test would shed some light on the matter.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12235
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2013 Lost first bar with higher readings?

Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:31 am

tkdbrusco wrote:So a friend of mine with a 2013 Leaf (MFG 6/13) just lost his first bar two days ago. He doesn't have a battery app so I took a reading. What I found was kind of strange. I wasn't able to take a reading at 100% so had to extrapolate max GIDS and kWh.

This was taken about a day and a half after the bar loss. The car had been charged to 100% twice since then.

Miles 37100
95 GIDS
7.38 kwh
45.49% SOC
84.53% SOH
83.34% HX
56.01 AHR
71.6 Degrees

If I look at Ahr, there's no way he should have lost a bar. If you look at HX, perhaps, SOH, possibly, but if you extrapolate out the 95 GIDS or 7.38 kWh to a 100% charge, He'd be at 215 GIDS or 16kwh respectively? Which seems way low for only a first bar drop. I feel like he should be somewhere like 235 or 18.8 kWh for having just lost his first capacity bar.

What is stranger is that if you compare his readings to my most recent on my 2015 (MFG 4/14) some of my readings are very close to his, but I'm reporting 267 GIDS at my last full charge. My car is only technically 10 months older based on MFG date and has roughly the same mileage at 36300. My readings are 267 GIDS, 20.69kwh, 97.19% SOC, 85.96 SOH, 86.84 HX, 56.95AHR. So by the SOH, HX, and AHR numbers, I should be about 1.5-2% capacity away from losing a bar, but if you look at my GIDS/Kwh, I'm at least 6% away?

Anyone have any thoughts or insights?


1) ahr is in the range of first bar loss since its a 17% reduction from new (67.36)

2) extrapolating is obviously not working so I would discount that track

3) Both SOC and Hx are just about where they should be for first bar loss

Now on YOUR car. Your numbers are out of whack. Kwh available is "adjustable" but GIDs are not and ahr is not. So lets look at those two exclusively

Using my 2013 for reference (ahr never made it as low as yours) my lowest GID reading (GID = 77.5 wh) was 249 during an experiment to see how very light usage would affect numbers and had ahr of 57.48.

My normal driving patterns dipped as usual but no lower than 253 GIDs at roughly 58 ahr. So I can really only guess a few things that might be occurring.

My LEAF I pretty much drove it from full to nearly empty almost every day. So it was a full cycle of charge on a regular basis. If I look at my average numbers a few weeks before turn in (due to mileage, I pretty much didn't drive it for the last 2 weeks I had it)

GID; 260 kwh available 20.2 ahr 59.5 SOH 90 Hx 89

So as you can see, all my numbers pretty much are where they should be so I would have to think its your charging/driving patterns causing the discrepancies assuming you have nothing weird going on like a failing cell or something.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tkdbrusco
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:46 am
Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
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Re: 2013 Lost first bar with higher readings?

Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:54 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
tkdbrusco wrote:So a friend of mine with a 2013 Leaf (MFG 6/13) just lost his first bar two days ago. He doesn't have a battery app so I took a reading. What I found was kind of strange. I wasn't able to take a reading at 100% so had to extrapolate max GIDS and kWh.

This was taken about a day and a half after the bar loss. The car had been charged to 100% twice since then.

Miles 37100
95 GIDS
7.38 kwh
45.49% SOC
84.53% SOH
83.34% HX
56.01 AHR
71.6 Degrees

If I look at Ahr, there's no way he should have lost a bar. If you look at HX, perhaps, SOH, possibly, but if you extrapolate out the 95 GIDS or 7.38 kWh to a 100% charge, He'd be at 215 GIDS or 16kwh respectively? Which seems way low for only a first bar drop. I feel like he should be somewhere like 235 or 18.8 kWh for having just lost his first capacity bar.

What is stranger is that if you compare his readings to my most recent on my 2015 (MFG 4/14) some of my readings are very close to his, but I'm reporting 267 GIDS at my last full charge. My car is only technically 10 months older based on MFG date and has roughly the same mileage at 36300. My readings are 267 GIDS, 20.69kwh, 97.19% SOC, 85.96 SOH, 86.84 HX, 56.95AHR. So by the SOH, HX, and AHR numbers, I should be about 1.5-2% capacity away from losing a bar, but if you look at my GIDS/Kwh, I'm at least 6% away?

Anyone have any thoughts or insights?


1) ahr is in the range of first bar loss since its a 17% reduction from new (67.36)

2) extrapolating is obviously not working so I would discount that track

3) Both SOC and Hx are just about where they should be for first bar loss

Now on YOUR car. Your numbers are out of whack. Kwh available is "adjustable" but GIDs are not and ahr is not. So lets look at those two exclusively

Using my 2013 for reference (ahr never made it as low as yours) my lowest GID reading (GID = 77.5 wh) was 249 during an experiment to see how very light usage would affect numbers and had ahr of 57.48.

My normal driving patterns dipped as usual but no lower than 253 GIDs at roughly 58 ahr. So I can really only guess a few things that might be occurring.

My LEAF I pretty much drove it from full to nearly empty almost every day. So it was a full cycle of charge on a regular basis. If I look at my average numbers a few weeks before turn in (due to mileage, I pretty much didn't drive it for the last 2 weeks I had it)

GID; 260 kwh available 20.2 ahr 59.5 SOH 90 Hx 89

So as you can see, all my numbers pretty much are where they should be so I would have to think its your charging/driving patterns causing the discrepancies assuming you have nothing weird going on like a failing cell or something.


Hey Dave,

So here's a reading from mine today with 53K on the car and it now being 3.5 years old (based on MFG date).

Reading taken at 100% charge

261 Gids
20.23 kwh
97.22% SOC
83.68 SOH
83.71 HX
55.44 Air
71 Temp

So here we are about a year after my initial post above and my numbers aren't that far off from above and you can see that there's still quite a large discrepancy from where my GIDS and Ahr numbers are. Still trying to make sense of this respective to a comparison between the Lizard 2015 pack and the prior packs. The only thing that adds up is that there's more reserve capacity in the lizard pack (1+ kWh worth) and this capacity is taken into account with the Ahr and Hx numbers but not in the actual GIDS. This means that the car is eating away at this extra capacity but still basing the bar drop on the reduction of actual range of the vehicle. This explains the GIDS being higher for the Ahr figure. I should be at 248 or so when it comes to GIDS but I'm not. As I said before, I'm expecting a bar loss when my car gets to about 53 Ahr, which would correspond to about 245 GIDS. Right now I'm at a real world loss of range of about 11%
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7192
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2013 Lost first bar with higher readings?

Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:23 am

FWIW, about the lowest I've recently seen my 5/2013 built '13 Leaf which still has all 12 bars was this on 10/8/17:
AHr: 55.50
SOH: 84%
Hx: 82.30%
odo: 48,756 miles

When the numbers were getting into that territory, I figured my 1st bar loss was near. However, as we all know, those numbers move around and I've been able to get those numbers higher. From earlier tonight (10/20/17) I'm at:
AHr: 56.58
SOH: 86%
Hx: 84.59%
odo: 49,156 miles

I think I saw 244 gids on a 100% charge earlier this evening. I expect to lose my 1st capacity bar sometime between now and May 2018, likely well before May.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12235
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2013 Lost first bar with higher readings?

Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:34 am

TKD; first off, don't look at the numbers until you have charged the car to 100% at least 4-5 days in a row. Try to drive at least 40 miles per day. I suspect that is part of the reason your numbers don't "match"

The other question to ponder is

There are three distinct "proven" methods to move the numbers around.

1) Fast charging

2) Several full charges in a row when discharging to AT LEAST 50% or so.

3) driving very lightly with only infrequent charging boosts.

We all know what #3 does so

In the first two scenarios, The question; are the resulting numbers more realistic of true pack condition or are the numbers being inflated beyond the true pack condition?

I have been experimenting with both and not getting good results because I am still seeing max GIDs and SOH on ALL of the above processes including #3 which is supposed to depress the numbers.

So if YOU guys could try this if you can manage to set aside a week to 10 days, let me know what you find out.

2nd off;

We really need to examine this attitude we have towards what initially appears to be a singular bad batch of batteries and not an overall evaluation of the LEAF technology.

I am not going to get into rehashing what we "should" already know but it doesn't take rocket science to see that

*2015 24 kwh packs are doing fine.

*later 2016/17 have reported no early issues (keeping in mind, the bad batch issues started in just a few months of purchase, some it was just a few weeks)

*the bad 30 kwh packs have NO REGIONAL OR CLIMATE RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER.

So cry about TMS all you want but pretty sure even Tesla TMS wouldn't have saved these packs.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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