2011 U.S. spec Leaf in the cold?

[Toyguru]

Hi Everyone,
I'm in Alberta, Canada, and considering buying a used Leaf, there are several 2011 SL models available with low mileage in the $22k to $26k range. The "problem" with these, is that they are US spec cars and are not, to the best of my knowledge, equipped with the battery warmer feature.
Has the absence of this feature been an issue with anybody, or can the battery warmer be installed on 2011 models? This would have to be my daily driver even when it's -40.
Any cold weather users want to chime in?
Thanks!

 

[downeykp]

At -40 you will be lucky to get 40 miles out of a full charge.

 

[TonyWilliams]

You could do it, but I would add some heaters to the battery and seat heaters.

Neither of these are particularly difficult. The battery pack can use the same pads you put on livestock tanks and oil pans, however they must be set to not exceed about 104F / 40C.

Will you have 120 volts at least when you park at work (for engine "block heaters")?

 

[Toyguru]

I do have easy access to 120V plugs, and would likely charge the car most of the time at work (for free). I can install the seat heaters easily enough, I'm a former Toyota Hybrid/Master tech, but I was curious how much difference the battery warmer makes in cold temps, or if there is anything else not on the 2011 US spec car that is a must have for cold weather conditions.
I just don't want to buy a car that I would hate driving in the winter, as it is our longest season here.
I appreciate the input!

 

[dgpcolorado]

I do have easy access to 120V plugs, and would likely charge the car most of the time at work (for free). I can install the seat heaters easily enough, I'm a former Toyota Hybrid/Master tech, but I was curious how much difference the battery warmer makes in cold temps, or if there is anything else not on the 2011 US spec car that is a must have for cold weather conditions.
I just don't want to buy a car that I would hate driving in the winter, as it is our longest season here.
I appreciate the input!

The LEAF battery warmer has nothing whatever to do with range: it is intended to protect the battery from freezing. It comes on at -20ºC and turns off at -10ºC. You can improve very cold weather range a bit by charging since that warms the battery and increases the amount of charge it can hold. But the cold hit to a car parked outside in very cold weather figures to be significant.

Some late model 2011 LEAFs had the "cold weather package". This included the battery warmer, seat, and steering wheel heaters. In a very cold climate — temperatures below -20ºC — I would not buy a LEAF without the cold weather package. Besides the battery warmer to protect the battery, the seat and, especially, the steering wheel, heaters make cold weather driving a LOT more pleasant and reduce the need for the power hog cabin heater, IME.

My 2¢.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I do have easy access to 120V plugs...

If you're handy, sure, just put the correct temperature 120 volt heating pads (those silicone ones are great) right on the bottom of the metal battery container. Evenly spaced.

Then, plug in at work to both charge the battery, heat the battery, and pre-warm the cabin. You'll be fine, although I would still install the seat heaters. The steering wheel heater might be nutty expensive, so I'd pass as a used car upgrade.

The battery will lose about 1% capacity per 4F/2C below 70F/20C degrees.

At -20C, expect about 20% loss. With your homemade simple heater, you won't have that. Plus, don't let the cells freeze at -30C or below !!!

 

[Toyguru]

Much to think about...we have some winters when it doesn't drop below -20c for more than few days, other winters, it can stay -30 for 2 or 3 weeks. I park my vehicles indoors at home and have plug ins at work, so as a few have suggested some surface heaters would probably do the trick.
I have the opportunity to pick up a 2011 SL with 6500 kms for $23K.
Good deal? Or wait for a 2012?

 

[RegGuheert]

In a very cold climate — temperatures below -20ºC — I would not buy a LEAF without the cold weather package.

Me, neither.

 

[braineo]

I would search for a 2012 and not bother for a 2011. I did get a new 2011 in Atlanta and I even bought an aftermarket seat warmer.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Much to think about...we have some winters when it doesn't drop below -20c for more than few days, other winters, it can stay -30 for 2 or 3 weeks. I park my vehicles indoors at home and have plug ins at work, so as a few have suggested some surface heaters would probably do the trick.
I have the opportunity to pick up a 2011 SL with 6500 kms for $23K.
Good deal? Or wait for a 2012?

First, check to see if the 2011 does have a cold weather package; some of the later ones did. If not I would pass on it. If it has seat/steering wheel heaters it has the cold weather package, otherwise it does not.

As for the price, that seems much too high for a used LEAF by USA standards. I don't know what the pricing is like in Canada. A low mileage used 2011 ought to be less than US$20K even if it doesn't have significant battery degradation. The Canadians here at MNL would know more about LEAF pricing than those of us on this side of the border.

 

[Toyguru]

Thanks very much for the input, the low mile 2011 seem to all be $21-$26K here. That means they must be picking them up for 17-18K at auction south of the border. Add the expenses for getting certified for Canada, duty and dealer mark up...price does seem reasonable. A new 2013 SL here is just shy of $40k and in Alberta we don't get any rebates! (Stupid oil driven economy) :evil:
There are no used 2012 models out there right now, so I will probably just wait until there are. If I can find a steal on a 2011 with cold weather pack, I'll jump on it, but will probably wait until some 2012's start to show up. (Much more rare here it seems)
I appreciate all the responses, you have been a great help with my decision.

 

[TimLee]

Further discussion of non cold weather package 2011 LEAF operation at this thread:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13902#p316775" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Where you are in Canada, you definitely need the cold weather package.
And even with it, keep in mind that the LEAF should not be left outdoors in < -20 C conditions for a long period of time unless you've set it up to stay charged.
The battery heater is fairly low power, 300 W, but will only operate until the battery gets down to 30% status of charge.
If LEAF was fully charged when you left it outside at < -20 C, and it wasn't plugged in to charge, that would take several days to happen though.
Unclear what the damage / impact is of a LEAF battery getting substantially below -20C (4F).

 

[surfingslovak]

Unclear what the damage / impact is of a LEAF battery getting substantially below -20C (4F).

Tim, I don't think that there will be any damage below -20C. The car simply will not charge or charge at a reduced rate if it's that cold. Regen will also be limited or not present. Presumably, this is because lithium-ion batteries suffer from a plating effect when charged in very cold conditions. Discharging a lithium-ion battery should not be a problem, but the usable capacity will diminished. Should the ambient temperature be below the minimum operating threshold, which I'm still unclear about, it may not start. That said, a number of 2011 LEAFs without the winter package have been imported from the US to Norway, and we have yet to hear about some sort of catastrophic failure. There is some difficulty getting CarWings to work, yes, but there has yet to be a post from an owner unable to operate this LEAF trim in Norway due to low temperature.

 

[TimLee]

Unclear what the damage / impact is of a LEAF battery getting substantially below -20C (4F).

Tim, I don't think that there will be any damage below -20C. The car simply not charge or charge at a reduced rate if it's that cold. Regen will also be limited or not present. Presumably, this is because lithium-ion batteries suffer from a plating effect when charged in very cold conditions. Discharging a lithium-ion battery should not be a problem, but the usable capacity will diminished. Should the ambient temperature be below the minimum operating threshold, which I'm still unclear about, it may not start. That said, a number of 2011 LEAFs without the winter package have been imported from the US to Norway, and we have yet to hear about some sort of catastrophic failure. There is some difficulty getting CarWings to work, yes, but there has yet to be a post from an owner unable to operate this LEAF trim in Norway due to low temperature.

You may be right, as I haven't read anything about any LEAF battery damage from extended < -20 C (4F) exposure. Seems like someone might have done that by now, and if there was damage word about that likely would have spread. But maybe people are just being careful. I still plan to leave my LEAF in the garage if it gets much below 0 F (but in TN doesn't get that cold much anymore, I don't think it has been lower than 0 F but one or two times in the past 15 year).
I'm still baffled by the Norway LEAF user that got so disgusted with the windshield washers that he got rid of the LEAF. The windshield washers are really poorly designed. But not near bad enough for me to get rid of the LEAF. Maybe windshield washers are a lot more critical in Norway and Canada.

 

[doberman]

i paid around $19k for my used 2011...with 19k miles