215 watt panels for only 78 cents per watt!

[madbrain]

Here is a bay area supplier who has pretty cheap panels .
http://king-solarman.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not affiliated, just getting some Talesun 240W panels from him for 65c/watt.

 

[RegGuheert]

That's a good deal! OTOH, it appears they charge $2/watt for Enphase M215 microinverters. (Or perhaps Enphase only allows them to show retail pricing?)

 

[hill]

Here is a bay area supplier who has pretty cheap panels .
http://king-solarman.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not affiliated, just getting some Talesun 240W panels from him for 65c/watt.

We have room for 4 more 225's ... but they have to be at least 18% efficiency in order to be small enough to fit on our existing mounting frames. If that's not bad enough ... we're hoping for a bargain price too.

 

[madbrain]

That's a good deal! OTOH, it appears they charge $2/watt for Enphase M215 microinverters. (Or perhaps Enphase only allows them to show retail pricing?)

Their web site is very confusing when it comes to pricing. What's shown under "shop by inverter" are ridiculous prices.

This page below shows more reasonable prices :
http://king-solarman.com/power-inverters/enphase-energy-inverters.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This shows $138 for M215 which is 64 cents a watt.

I didn't buy my micro-inverters from King Solarman. I bought them from another company called Westinghouse solar in San Jose. They have some surplus M190s for $99 a piece which is 52 cents/watt.

The M215 are costly to install because you need trunk cables for each one which adds another $30 per inverter. The older M190s that I went with have built-in 6ft cables, so no extra cost.

Of course, the M215 can produce more. However, the M190s are fine with the 240W panels I ended up getting. The peak production per panel is about 175W for each, which is still less than the max the M190 can do. The M215 may make sense for bigger panels in the 250-290W range.

My system addition was completed yesterday. Here is the public site.
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/njM38932" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The big array at the bottom is made up of 28 Sharp NU-U235F1 235W mono panels with 14 D380 micro-inverters. Those were installed 2 years ago.

The two smaller arrays at the top, of 3 and 9 panels, are with the new cheaper Talesun 240W poly panels, with 12 M190s.

The D380s are like two M190s in one unit, so essentially all the micro-inverters are the same generation technology.

The new panels have only been running for day, but if you looks like the new panels are producing about 10 to 20% more energy than the old ones. The old panels may need to be cleaned, something I have never done.

The new panels are mounted 8" away from the roof, while the old ones are flush with the roof. According to my installer the spacing means the panels run cooler and produce more.

I think I got quite a deal on the solar expansion, at about $2/W net.

I still have roof space and would have put a few more panels at this price, except you can only have a max of 32 amps of generation with a 200amp main electrical panel. Upgrading to a 400amp panel was cost prohibitive, almost $4000 extra ! Maybe some day, but not now.

Now I just need to get a deal on a Leaf to start benefiting from all this extra power...
Even with 40 solar panels, I won't have any surplus energy if I never get a Leaf. But I will be paying only meter charges due to the TOU rate.

If I add the Leaf, I could charge it at home up to about 5.5 kWh per day without extra cost on the bill, thanks to the TOU rate.

 

[madbrain]

Here is a bay area supplier who has pretty cheap panels .
http://king-solarman.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not affiliated, just getting some Talesun 240W panels from him for 65c/watt.

We have room for 4 more 225's ... but they have to be at least 18% efficiency in order to be small enough to fit on our existing mounting frames. If that's not bad enough ... we're hoping for a bargain price too.

Not sure about your efficiency requirement but you should probably go by panel dimensions if that's your limiting factor. Maybe you can find some cheaper lower wattage panels that would fit.

 

[QueenBee]

The M215 are costly to install because you need trunk cables for each one which adds another $30 per inverter. The older M190s that I went with have built-in 6ft cables, so no extra cost.

Of course, the M215 can produce more. However, the M190s are fine with the 240W panels I ended up getting. The peak production per panel is about 175W for each, which is still less than the max the M190 can do. The M215 may make sense for bigger panels in the 250-290W range.

The new panels are mounted 8" away from the roof, while the old ones are flush with the roof. According to my installer the spacing means the panels run cooler and produce more.

I still have roof space and would have put a few more panels at this price, except you can only have a max of 32 amps of generation with a 200amp main electrical panel. Upgrading to a 400amp panel was cost prohibitive, almost $4000 extra ! Maybe some day, but not now.

Note that 290W panels are not going to be supported by Enphase microinverters as the voltage gets too high for them. I think you pretty much need 60 cell modules and the 290 watt modules are 72 cell.

Your M190s are fine but I think your peak production numbers are off a bit. I have 235W panels and in the spring I was seeing peak power of just under 200 watts. I'll be really surprised if you don't see a little bit of clipping but for the cost savings it was probably worth it.

I agree with you about the m215 cabling being more expensive. I'm not really too sold on it but it's pretty convenient and seems solidly built/thought out. It can be had for under $20 per inverter but you may need extras depending on your layout and sealing camps and then branch terminators.

I found a study once about the height difference and I forget the specific measurements now but the basic result was that once you were a inch or two off the roof additional height only negligibly increased production.

There is a much simpler solution to the 200 amp panel bus problem. The code allows you to have breakers totalling 120% of the panels bus rating. So for a 200 amp panel with a 200 amp bus you can have 240 amps of breakers supplying power. If you replace your 200 amp main breaker with say a 150 amp breaker now you can have a 90 amp solar PV breaker instead of only 40 amps.

$2 a watt for the materials is where I am at too. At this price I just can't help but fill out my roof with the goal of an annual 0 usage bill. It's really too bad my utility will not provide at least some credit for excess at the end of the year.

 

[madbrain]

Note that 290W panels are not going to be supported by Enphase microinverters as the voltage gets too high for them. I think you pretty much need 60 cell modules and the 290 watt modules are 72 cell.

Oops, you are right. But I know the M190 won't support anything beyond 245W, but the M215 will.

Your M190s are fine but I think your peak production numbers are off a bit. I have 235W panels and in the spring I was seeing peak power of just under 200 watts. I'll be really surprised if you don't see a little bit of clipping but for the cost savings it was probably worth it.

I don't think I have seen anything beyond 185W for the last two years with my 28 x Sharp 235W panels and 14 x D380s. Not close to 200W. Not sure about the new panels yet.

I agree with you about the m215 cabling being more expensive. I'm not really too sold on it but it's pretty convenient and seems solidly built/thought out. It can be had for under $20 per inverter but you may need extras depending on your layout and sealing camps and then branch terminators.

I assume you meant under $200 per inverter total.

I found a study once about the height difference and I forget the specific measurements now but the basic result was that once you were a inch or two off the roof additional height only negligibly increased production.

I never heard about it before, was quite surprised to see the new panels off the roof, had never heard about it before.

There is a much simpler solution to the 200 amp panel bus problem. The code allows you to have breakers totalling 120% of the panels bus rating. So for a 200 amp panel with a 200 amp bus you can have 240 amps of breakers supplying power. If you replace your 200 amp main breaker with say a 150 amp breaker now you can have a 90 amp solar PV breaker instead of only 40 amps.

Right, I am aware of that solution. My electrician suggested replacing the main breaker with a 175 amp. I think 150amp would be cutting it a bit too close with all the loads I'm running.
However, according to him, due to the design of the particular 200amp panel that I have, it's not possible to replace the 200 amp breaker with anything smaller. It would have to be replaced with another 200amp panel that would allow a smaller main breaker. But at that point, the cost would still be high, and I may as well go for a 400 amp panel. I chose to save the $4000 and do neither.

$2 a watt for the materials is where I am at too. At this price I just can't help but fill out my roof with the goal of an annual 0 usage bill. It's really too bad my utility will not provide at least some credit for excess at the end of the year.

$2/watt is my installed cost after CA rebate and federal tax credit.

My existing 28 x 235 panels generated about 11 MWh for the last 12 months - 10988 kWh to be precise, and 5808 kWh net grid usage. Ie. total usage of 16800 kWh.

My projections are that the extra 12 x 240 will add about 4800 kWh/year, so about 15700 kWh total production. The Leaf, which I just got today, is expected to add between 1280 and 4380 kWh per year to my usage, depending on how much I charge at home or at work - the low number is for charging mostly weekends at home, and the rest at work, high number charging 100% at home. With the low number, I would have $0 of annual energy charges, high number, about $450.

Assuming worst case - 100% charging the Leaf at home, I will have about 5400 kWh of annual grid usage. I would need another 16 solar panels to zero the usage. However, it would only take another 6 panels to cover the energy charges due to the E6 TOU rate. I would have gladly put an extra 6 solar panels now. I chose not to, due to the 400 amp main panel issue.

The time will come I am sure, when I have a second EV or a PHEV, and one or both of my natural gas water heaters die, and I may replace them with electric models. At that point, the extra loads would justify the 400 amp main panel, and the addition of even more solar panels. My calculations show I would need a total of 71 panels to cover all electric charges for this case, or 80 panels to cover all net annual energy. Ie. another 31 - 40 panels on top of the current 40. I think I may have the room on the roof for about 20 more, not sure about 40 more unless I start putting some ugly tilts, or maybe put them above my rear enclosed deck, but it may be too shaded there.

Hopefully, the solar prices will be 20 cents/watt installed by then

 

[QueenBee]

I don't think I have seen anything beyond 185W for the last two years with my 28 x Sharp 235W panels and 14 x D380s. Not close to 200W. Not sure about the new panels yet.

Hmm, so when you see 185W does the output create flat lines? Just strange that I'm seeing more than that out of same sized panels. The M215 isn't that much more efficient. Maybe it's from being mounted "on the roof" It was only in the spring where the temperatures were cooler did I see numbers nearing 200W. Will be interesting to see how the new panels compare.

I agree with you about the m215 cabling being more expensive. I'm not really too sold on it but it's pretty convenient and seems solidly built/thought out. It can be had for under $20 per inverter but you may need extras depending on your layout and sealing camps and then branch terminators.

I assume you meant under $200 per inverter total.

I mean just the cabling system itself will add about $20.

There is a much simpler solution to the 200 amp panel bus problem. The code allows you to have breakers totalling 120% of the panels bus rating. So for a 200 amp panel with a 200 amp bus you can have 240 amps of breakers supplying power. If you replace your 200 amp main breaker with say a 150 amp breaker now you can have a 90 amp solar PV breaker instead of only 40 amps.

Right, I am aware of that solution. My electrician suggested replacing the main breaker with a 175 amp. I think 150amp would be cutting it a bit too close with all the loads I'm running.
However, according to him, due to the design of the particular 200amp panel that I have, it's not possible to replace the 200 amp breaker with anything smaller. It would have to be replaced with another 200amp panel that would allow a smaller main breaker. But at that point, the cost would still be high, and I may as well go for a 400 amp panel. I chose to save the $4000 and do neither.

Hrm, have you researched that yourself? Seems really silly for them to do that since why wouldn't want the main breaker to be a standard so they can sell identical panels in 150/175/200/etc. versions. On my 200 amp GE panel I was able to buy a 100 amp since my service is only 100 amp.

Congrats on the new LEAF!

 

[RegGuheert]

I don't think I have seen anything beyond 185W for the last two years with my 28 x Sharp 235W panels and 14 x D380s. Not close to 200W. Not sure about the new panels yet.

Hmm, so when you see 185W does the output create flat lines? Just strange that I'm seeing more than that out of same sized panels. The M215 isn't that much more efficient. Maybe it's from being mounted "on the roof" It was only in the spring where the temperatures were cooler did I see numbers nearing 200W. Will be interesting to see how the new panels compare.

It's simply a function of temperature, as you say. At the peak power point, the output current of the panel is mainly a function of the amount of light hitting the panel, but the voltage goes up as the temperature goes down. Our M190s spend hours of each sunny day in the middle of winter flatlined at 199W each, even with 235W panels connected. So for our application, M215s would produce a bit more energy each year than we get with the M190s. I estimate it could account for a couple hundred kWh each year.

Here is a picture showing our array back in January 2011 maxed out at 199W/inverter for a few hours:

 

[madbrain]

Hi,

I don't think I have seen anything beyond 185W for the last two years with my 28 x Sharp 235W panels and 14 x D380s. Not close to 200W. Not sure about the new panels yet.

Hmm, so when you see 185W does the output create flat lines? Just strange that I'm seeing more than that out of same sized panels. The M215 isn't that much more efficient. Maybe it's from being mounted "on the roof" It was only in the spring where the temperatures were cooler did I see numbers nearing 200W. Will be interesting to see how the new panels compare.

I went back and looked more closely.
I have never seen the whole array flatline.

But when I looked at individual inverters, I did see them flatline, and indeed at 200W, for a couple of hours, even with the old 235W panels on the D380, in the months of may - june when I hit peak production.

However, looking at the last week, my lifetime best inverter (in total kWh) hit a peak of only 168W and never flatlined. This was a D380/Sharp 235W panel combo.

The best of the new 245W panels with M190 hit a peak of 200W yesterday (tuesday), strangely at 10:35am PT, so in part peak. I only have 6 days of data so far for those new panels.

Hrm, have you researched that yourself? Seems really silly for them to do that since why wouldn't want the main breaker to be a standard so they can sell identical panels in 150/175/200/etc. versions. On my 200 amp GE panel I was able to buy a 100 amp since my service is only 100 amp.

No, I haven't researched it, but several solar contractors told me the exact same thing, so I trust that this is true.
A full panel swap is expensive, and I have so many circuits already and 2 subpanels. There is only enough breaker space for the L2 charger.
I'm glad I skipped the 400amp panel upgrade.

I have learned there is a possibility of getting 480V triphase power that's already at the utility pole to my house for a possible L3 charger. It will no doubt cost more than the Leaf itself with the lease deal I got, but I can still dream .

Cost will be between $1k - $10k for PG&E, plus main panel replacement (not sure what it entails to run a house on 480V triphase!), plus of course the L3 charger itself which is rumored to cost $10k - $25k.
Sadly there seems to be no tax credit on those and Blink said they would not give me a free L3

Congrats on the new LEAF!

Thanks !

 

[madbrain]

Here is a picture showing our array back in January 2011 maxed out at 199W/inverter for a few hours:

Thanks, you were right.
I thought my array was big with 40 PV but you got 42 ! The answer to life, universe and everything !

I went to look more carefully and have seen a few panels hitting 200W actually rather than 199W.

However, each panel never hits the peak at the same time, and this is why I never see the whole array flatline. I had to look at individual inverters to see the flatlines.

 

[RegGuheert]

I thought my array was big with 40 PV but you got 42 !

Your array likely produces more electricity in a year, since I think we have more clouds here.

I went to look more carefully and have seen a few panels hitting 200W actually rather than 199W.

However, each panel never hits the peak at the same time, and this is why I never see the whole array flatline. I had to look at individual inverters to see the flatlines.

It sounds like your panels may not all point in the same direction. If not, then they won't hit their peaks at the same time. Our panels all point in the same direction, so they all peak at the same time. Sometimes one or two will hit 200W, but they usually stop at 199W.

In any case, I don't see them flatlining much this time of year unless we get a very cold day. In January, they live at 199W during the middle of the day.

Do you have a link to your array that you can share?

 

[madbrain]

I thought my array was big with 40 PV but you got 42 !

Your array likely produces more electricity in a year, since I think we have more clouds here.

I went to look more carefully and have seen a few panels hitting 200W actually rather than 199W.

However, each panel never hits the peak at the same time, and this is why I never see the whole array flatline. I had to look at individual inverters to see the flatlines.

It sounds like your panels may not all point in the same direction. If not, then they won't hit their peaks at the same time. Our panels all point in the same direction, so they all peak at the same time. Sometimes one or two will hit 200W, but they usually stop at 199W.

In any case, I don't see them flatlining much this time of year unless we get a very cold day. In January, they live at 199W during the middle of the day.

Do you have a link to your array that you can share?

Yes , here you go.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/njM38932" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 28 x 235 Sharp panels / D380 at the bottom had been producing about 11000 kWh for the last 12 months.

I expect the newly added 12 x 240 Talesun / M190 (arrays of 3 and 9 on top) to produce another 4700 kWh per year.

 

[QueenBee]

I expect the newly added 12 x 240 Talesun / M190 (arrays of 3 and 9 on top) to produce another 4700 kWh per year.

Jealous, a 2,880 watt array here would product about 2,880kWh per year.

 

[madbrain]

I expect the newly added 12 x 240 Talesun / M190 (arrays of 3 and 9 on top) to produce another 4700 kWh per year.

Jealous, a 2,880 watt array here would product about 2,880kWh per year.

I bet you run your AC a lot less, though.

 

[RegGuheert]

Yes , here you go.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/njM38932" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cool, a diagonal array! There is an array nearby which has two arrays shown normally (portrait orientation) and one array at a diagonal. Is it shown that way because that is what it looks like on your roof?

The 28 x 235 Sharp panels / D380 at the bottom had been producing about 11000 kWh for the last 12 months.

I expect the newly added 12 x 240 Talesun / M190 (arrays of 3 and 9 on top) to produce another 4700 kWh per year.

Very nice!

I don't have a good baseline, yet, since we had a misbehaving inverter that was disrupting the production of the entire array until February 2012, but it looks like annual production for our 42 x 235W Sharp panels/M190 microinverters will be about 14800 kWh/year.

 

[madbrain]

Yes , here you go.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/njM38932" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cool, a diagonal array! There is an array nearby which has two arrays shown normally (portrait orientation) and one array at a diagonal. Is it shown that way because that is what it looks like on your roof?

I think it's only because of the azimuth. This is what the old array looks like.

I have not taken pictures of the new panels yet, have to go a bit uphill for that to see the other roof sections behind.

The 28 x 235 Sharp panels / D380 at the bottom had been producing about 11000 kWh for the last 12 months.

I expect the newly added 12 x 240 Talesun / M190 (arrays of 3 and 9 on top) to produce another 4700 kWh per year.

Very nice!

I don't have a good baseline, yet, since we had a misbehaving inverter that was disrupting the production of the entire array until February 2012, but it looks like annual production for our 42 x 235W Sharp panels/M190 microinverters will be about 14800 kWh/year.

That seems quite good given how far north you probably are compared to me.

 

[EnergyNovice]

I just noticed that Sun Electronics is clearing out their Evergreen ES-E-210 and 215 watt panels for only 78 cents per watt! They also have LG Solar 220 watt panels for 88 cents/watt. Both are Polycrystalline I believe. If I hadn't just put together a bid for Canadian Solar 230 watt panels I would probably go for the Evergreens.
http://www.sunelec.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The LG solar panels are much better panel for the long run.

 

[camasleaf]

Sun Electronics now has some super low prices:

280W for $0.48 per watt minimum 22 panels. The catch is that they are "unlisted". What does that mean for the safety of using the product, making it a grid tie system and for the federal tax credit?

They also have containers at lower prices but that will require a group buy. Anybody interested?

 

[madbrain]

Sun Electronics now has some super low prices:

280W for $0.48 per watt minimum 22 panels. The catch is that they are "unlisted". What does that mean for the safety of using the product, making it a grid tie system and for the federal tax credit?

Unlisted for what ?

UL ?
CEC ?

Or both ?

Check your local building codes about the "unlisted" issue.

Ask your electric utility about grid-tie and the requirements for your panels.

In California, you must buy CEC listed panels to be eligible for the CSI rebate.
This doe snot affect the federal tax credit, however.