Any 2013 Leaf's with a bar loss yet

[dgpcolorado]

...We went on two trips for a week in our ICE. When I came back, there seemed to be a notable drop in capacity even with the car not used and sitting at 50% or so.

Anyone else notice big drops when letting the car sit unused? I remember someone let their car sit at 100% for 3 weeks and they really hurt. But could it have been sitting vs. the 100%?

Left unplugged at 40-50% charge the battery should hold its charge level pretty well; many have done this. Leaving the battery at 100% for an extended time is believed to speed up degradation substantially. This is quite different from charging to 100% and then driving the car to a lower charge level soon thereafter: the battery doesn't remain at 100% long enough to matter.

Leaving the car plugged-in for a week or more may lead to higher discharge rates and, possibly, a dead 12 Volt battery. Don't do this [there are numerous threads on this subject]. When leaving my car for a week or more I leave it unplugged at 40% SOC and put a battery tender on the 12 Volt battery to keep it in good shape (unlike Li-ion batteries, lead-acid batteries are best left fully charged).

 

[surfingslovak]

What about not using the battery? Apple says "For proper maintenance of a lithium-based battery, it’s important to keep the electrons in it moving occasionally".

The problem with a computer is that the battery will fully discharge after a relatively short time. With a LEAF, it would take a particularly long time for the Li-ion battery to discharge, especially if the 12V battery is disconnected.

Yes, I disagree with this notion also. Most people who have used lithium-ion batteries outside of consumer electronics and laptops will tell you that the best way to store them is between 30% to 40% SOC and placed in a refrigerator (not in the freezer). Owners who left their LEAF halfway charged when leaving on vacation likely did the best possible thing, at least according to the common knowledge today. The car should not lose more than a percentage point or two each month through self-discharge. Unlike with the Model S, there is no vampire load to speak of. It's advisable to leave the auxiliary 12V battery on a tender, which should further limit any energy draw from the traction battery.

 

[RegGuheert]

I would challenge you to plot calendar losses versus cycling losses for different climates, and come up with a comparison. I would contend that with the LEAF the losses incurred from and because of ambient heat are larger than cycling losses.

By an order of magnitude? That's what I responded to. It's simply not so in cooler climates.

I would also challenge you or anyone else on this forum to find anyone in the field, who can conclusively demonstrate that any of the good battery care practices prolonged the usable life of their battery. We know that these practices are sound, and if we cannot see them manifested in the field, it's because of the sensitivity of this particular battery to ambient heat, which is hardly controllable by the user. I still recall the nearly religious debates on this forum in 2010 and 2011. There is almost nothing that came to pass. All these predictions turned out to be wrong, and sometimes quite significantly so. I wonder why.

I certainly cannot convincingly preserve the life of our battery, since the dealership let it sit for six months fully charged prior to purchase. Little did I know. And further, we let the car sit at 80% for approximately a year after that, so more degradation likely occurred. Now it sits around 35%. We'll see how things go...

But note that TaylorSFGuy lost his bar at 70,000 miles. I suspect cycling is dominant in his case, but there is no way to be sure. Even if it is, he would be the exception, since he has high mileage and a cool climate.

 

[surfingslovak]

I would challenge you to plot calendar losses versus cycling losses for different climates, and come up with a comparison. I would contend that with the LEAF the losses incurred from and because of ambient heat are larger than cycling losses.

By an order of magnitude? That's what I responded to. It's simply not so in cooler climates.

That's true, I didn't word it cleanly enough. You are right, in colder climates, cycling losses and calendar aging are comparable. That said, I would think that heat-related losses are much higher, perhaps even an order of magnitude higher than most have anticipated. Even in cooler climates. Many of the early predictions focused on cycle life, expecting that to be the most significant factor. Calendar losses were a bit of an afterthought, and were expected to be between 2% to 4% depending on the climate. I was one of the people perpetrating this expectation, and I was wrong. And by a significant margin in many cases.

 

[RegGuheert]

That said, I would think that heat related losses are much higher, perhaps even an order of magnitude higher than most have anticipated. Even in cooler climates. Many of the early predictions focused on cycle life, expecting that to be the most significant factor. Calendar losses were a bit of an afterthought, and were expected to be between 2% to 4% depending on the climate. I was one of the people perpetrating this expectation, and I was wrong. And by a significant margin in many cases.

No argument. As I said, I didn't realize how bad 100% might be until AFTER I purchased the a car that had sat at that SOC for half a year. Live an learn, I guess.

I have a bluetooth OBDII reader on order. I should know where I stand soon. (Or perhaps someone will have one at the plug-in event tomorrow!) Frankly, I never felt I had the range that many experienced when their cars were new, but I must say that I also don't think it has dropped too much in the 1.5 years we have owned the car.

 

[surfingslovak]

But note that TaylorSFGuy lost his bar at 70,000 miles. I suspect cycling is dominant in his case, but there is no way to be sure. Even if it is, he would be the exception, since he has high mileage and a cool climate.

Steve is an interesting case, especially since he achieved the highest mileage before losing the first capacity bar. Others in the PNW typically don't cross 50,000 miles before seeing the first bar go. He does not drive gently, by his own admission, and did not baby the battery. Two full charges each day. Sometime a quick charge to make it to his destination. Lots of freeway driving. Personally, I would attribute the good performance of his LEAF relative to others in his area to the fact that he did not garage it. Solar loading is not much of an factor in Seattle, and since he works at a fishery, his workplace is very close to the coastline. I looked the temperature profile for Shelton, WA and it appears to be more favorable than Kent or Olympia. Since the car is sitting there for a significant amount of time, lower ambient temperatures there could be a contributing factor to the better performance of his battery. This is just a guess, but in his case I would assume that the cycling loss to be a bit more than half of his total loss. Stoaty's model likely will have a more accurate estimate for this, but like with any data we have at our disposition, we cannot be absolutely certain.

 

[RegGuheert]

Two full charges each day.

His is the best evidence we have that charging to full, in itself, does not harm the battery. His battery certainly didn't have much time to sit around fully charged!

 

[surfingslovak]

His is the best evidence we have that charging to full, in itself, does not harm the battery. His battery certainly didn't have much time to sit around fully charged!

Indeed!

 

[LEAFfan]

LEAFFan, do you feel any improvements in range with your 13 vs your 12?

I had a 2011 and the 2013 seems to do better at 55mph than the other one. In the city, I haven't noticed much difference. Also, the A/C definitely uses more energy than the 2011's.

 

[Stoaty]

But note that TaylorSFGuy lost his bar at 70,000 miles.

Stoaty's model likely will have a more accurate estimate for this, but like with any data we have at our disposition, we cannot be absolutely certain.

I would very much like to get an AH reading from him 6 weeks after he has the P3227 update (along with the other required information). We need to see readings from those who don't fit the usual mold to see if the Battery Aging Model can accurately predict their capacity loss.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

LEAFFan,

Thank you for the response. Yes, (though I did not have a 2011 leaf) I have noticed as well that cruising at 53-55 mph (during a reasonably warm day) seems to give a range of just over 100 miles (though I haven't taken that out all the way, extrapolating after the first 60 miles). This would seem to exceed the chart posted by Tony Williams a couple years ago. I know the 62 mph tests seemed to show no improvement in range in his area. I don't know whether his 2013 was from Japan or TN. Not that that should have made a difference.

Separate observation. When engaging cruise control the GOM drops by 5 or 6 miles, but then slowly recovers. Not sure why that is the case.

 

[johnrhansen]

I have a 2013 leaf, and I store it in an insulated (but not heated) garage. In the summer, my car had a cooler life in there. Now that winter is arriving when I go out to my car in the morning it's still a toasty 65 degrees in there because of the heat created by the charging. My charging station is placed so that my car must be in the garage to charge it, and I have it set up on a charging timer so I leave for work right after it finishes charging. I charge to 100 percent because I dive 60 miles round trip to work. Would my car sitting out in the cold all night during the winter make enough of a difference in the life of my battery to be worth my while to relocate the EVSE outside?

 

[derkraut]

John: IMHO, it's not worth the trouble.

 

[LilDave]

I have a 2013 and I am getting ready to turn over 10,000 miles. I charge everyday to 100% as I have a fairly long commute (52 miles RT). I don't have a way to check the battery so I guess I will find out how it looks at my 1 year checkup. Range seems to have dropped a bit as the temperatures are beginning to hit the 40's at night. I have seen the same thing on the Volt.

 

[planet4ever]

I don't have a way to check the battery so I guess I will find out how it looks at my 1 year checkup.

The 1 year battery report will tell Nissan a lot about the state of the battery, but all they will give you is some stars that reflect whether you have been mistreating it. You could have 3 capacity bars missing and still get all five stars.

Ray