Any knowledge at what point Nissan will repair/replace bat?

[TomT]

Actually, I'd driven the RAV4 EV but it is not my kind of vehicle... Plus, it is too pricey IMHO...

Go rent the Rav4 for a day... You won't be thinking about Nissan and their battery BS.

 

[TomT]

No, not unfair at all! Tires cost a few hundred bucks to replace; batteries dozens of times more! Nissan also led everyone to believe that you'd still have at least 80% battery capacity after 5 years...

I think this is a bit unfair.. Nissan was pretty clear that there is no capacity warranty from day one.. it is a wear item after all, just like tires some drivers will get a longer life than others.

 

[TonyWilliams]

No, not unfair at all! Tires cost a few hundred bucks to replace; batteries dozens of times more! Nissan also led everyone to believe that you'd still have at least 80% battery capacity after 5 years...

I think this is a bit unfair.. Nissan was pretty clear that there is no capacity warranty from day one.. it is a wear item after all, just like tires some drivers will get a longer life than others.

I suspect that most of us didn't consider the "no capacity warrantee" to be a threat to our ownership costs or experiences with the repeated assurances and specific predictions by Nissan.

If Michelin came out with a tire that they said would go 200,000 miles, but they won't warrantee that, what would you think? If the tire comes up short, it's was probably still a heck of a good tire, and a relatively small impact to the ownership experience. A bad battery, and it's associated costs, are a whole different ownership experience; it is the single most expensive part of any mass production car ever.

That takes an EV battery out of the realm of mere "consumable", like wiper blades, 12 volt lead acids, and fan belts.

 

[mark1313]

Im not sure if there are any updated threads on the lawsuits or not,but it looks like we will need to wait and see what the courts rulings will be concerning the Leafs batteries..

 

[Herm]

I'm not sure why you're worried about Nissan's profit on the LEAF being wiped out. If the effect is only on a very small amount of cars like they claim it to be, the cost of making whole on only the affected owners of this small amount of cars would be still far less than the effect of losing future sales because of the far reaching negative publicity.

I was thinking more when they start selling (I hope) 100k cars per year and then half the owners start demanding a $5k battery replacement that costs Nissan $12k.. biggest mistake Nissan did was in ever offering the car for sale in Phoenix and putting that big-ass capacity meter right on the dash. The car seems to be ok in temperate climates. How many people would complain without the capacity meter on the dash?

I knew from day one that there was going to be a vocal group of owners in Phoenix (and posted it here) that would complain when the battery degraded, but I was expecting about 3 years before that happened. I think Nissan management was also surprised and now are trying to weasel their way around... Andy's Phoenix "glidepath" nerdy talk is not helping at all, everyone has misunderstood what he said.

 

[TomT]

Apparently I don't live in a "temperate climate..." And I would still be complaining without a meter as drives I used to be able to make conformable are now taking me to beyond VLB... Thus, the decrease in range is easily apparent to me, meter or no.

The car seems to be ok in temperate climates. How many people would complain without the capacity meter on the dash?

 

[Stoaty]

Apparently I don't live in a "temperate climate..." And I would still be complaining without a meter as drives I used to be able to make conformable are now taking me to beyond VLB... Thus, the decrease in range is easily apparent to me, meter or no.

Tom, I have a couple of questions:

1) How long do you typically leave your Leaf at 100% charge (hours/day)?
2) What is your average miles/kwh?
3) How much time does your Leaf spend parked in the sun (average hours/day)?

Thanks.

 

[TomT]

1) How long do you typically leave your Leaf at 100% charge (hours/day)? I rarely charge to 100%. On those occasions when I do (typically a couple of times a month though somewhat more now due to the decreased range), usually less than 2 or 3 hours.
2) What is your average miles/kwh? 4.4
3) How much time does your Leaf spend parked in the sun (average hours/day)? At work about 5 hours. At home it is garaged.

 

[smkettner]

If Michelin came out with a tire that they said would go 200,000 miles, but they won't warrantee that, what would you think? If the tire comes up short, it's was probably still a heck of a good tire, and a relatively small impact to the ownership experience. A bad battery, and it's associated costs, are a whole different ownership experience; it is the single most expensive part of any mass production car ever.

And if this 200,000 mile tire was bad at 100,000 due to undisclosed heat issues and no other brand was available.... I think you would at least expect a price and availability to purchase.

 

[Stoaty]

1) How long do you typically leave your Leaf at 100% charge (hours/day)? I rarely charge to 100%. On those occasions when I do (typically a couple of times a month though somewhat more now due to the decreased range), usually less than 2 or 3 hours.
2) What is your average miles/kwh? 4.4
3) How much time does your Leaf spend parked in the sun (average hours/day)? At work about 5 hours. At home it is garaged.

Hmm... my model predicts 87.3% remaining capacity for you, 245 Gids on a full charge and 196 Gids on an 80% charge (assumes the Gid-meter gives meaningful results for purposes of capacity determination). It sounds like you may be a bit below that, hard to tell with the inaccuracy of the capacity bar losses. What percentage do you estimate your remaining capacity to be (based on Gids, actual range, distance to VLBW, etc.)?

 

[TomT]

My best estimate is that I am currently at about 80 percent of original capacity... This is based on actual range and range to VLBW... My Gid Meter was stolen some time ago so I can't currently give Gid readings.

What percentage do you estimate your remaining capacity to be (based on Gids, actual range, distance to VLBW, etc.)?

 

[Stoaty]

My best estimate is that I am currently at about 80 percent of original capacity... This is based on actual range and range to VLBW... My Gid Meter was stolen some time ago so I can't currently give Gid readings.

While my model is a good predictor in many cases, there are others such as yours where it appears to underestimate the capacity loss. I haven't been able to figure out why this is so. Is the climate in Van Nuys, CA pretty similar to yours? That's what I used for the calculation. What was your range to VLBW originally, and what is it now? Do you keep your Leaf charged to 80% most of the time, or does it sit at a signficantly lower SOC on average? Thanks.

 

[DaveEV]

I wonder if TomT actually has a weak cell causing his faster than expected capacity loss... It'd really be nice if we had access to cell-level voltages without having to rely on the dealer to run the test properly.

 

[surfingslovak]

While my model is a good predictor in many cases, there are others such as yours where it appears to underestimate the capacity loss. I haven't been able to figure out why this is so.

There will always be outliers, and while they shouldn't be discounted, it's more important to make sure that the majority of use cases and local conditions are reasonably well covered. I have a theory about Tom's situation, but it's just that, a theory. I believe that he lives on a hill. Friends of mine live on a hill as well, it's approximately 500 feet of elevation difference. Their Leaf has seen fairly dramatic range loss, despite of living in a cooler climate when compared to the valley most of us are in. It gets foggy up there too. Regular sustained hill climbs, and subsequent regen sessions, could affect battery longevity, and they would not necessarily show up in the energy economy figure. At least not in a very significant way. I've been monitoring data from abasile's Leaf, and found it surprising how exceptionally well it is holding up. This would seem to contradict what I said above, but it's possible that it's that much cooler where abasile lived or that there is some other qualitative difference.

I wonder if TomT actually has a weak cell causing his faster than expected capacity loss... It'd really be nice if we had access to cell-level voltages without having to rely on the dealer to run the test properly.

Yes, absolutely. I've heard about Tesla approaching Roadster owners when they expected a cell to go bad based on their remote vehicle monitoring. Wonder if Nissan will do something like that in the future.

 

[TomT]

I don't know obviously, but I should think that a weak cell would trigger something other than (just) the capacity loss indicator... And yes, I live on the top of about a 700 foot hill so I have substantial regen for the first number of miles of my journeys... My typical total point to point elevation difference each day is about 1,400 feet one way.

I wonder if TomT actually has a weak cell causing his faster than expected capacity loss... It'd really be nice if we had access to cell-level voltages without having to rely on the dealer to run the test properly.

 

[Stoaty]

There will always be outliers, and while they shouldn't be discounted, it's more important to make sure that the majority of use cases and local conditions are reasonably well covered. I have a theory about Tom's situation, but it's just that, a theory. I believe that he lives on a hill. Friends of mine live on a hill as well, it's approximately 500 feet of elevation difference. Their Leaf has seen fairly dramatic range loss, despite of living in a cooler climate when compared to the valley most of us are in. It gets foggy up there too. Regular sustained hill climbs, and subsequent regen sessions, could affect battery longevity, and they would not necessarily show up in the energy economy figure. At least not in a very significant way.

I don't think that particular theory is correct. My Leaf spends 25% of its time in the San Fernando Valley (in the sun) and 75% near Santa Monica, which is signficantly cooler. My commute involves about 1300 feet elevation gain per day (granted, I keep power output to about 25 kw even on steep hills, resulting in slower speeds). If I use Van Nuys, my model predicts 252 Gids for my total mileage, length of ownership, efficiency of driving and days in the sun. If I use Santa Monica, the result is 255 Gids. Using a weighted average, I get 254 Gids (90.4% remaining capacity) as the model prediction. Recent full charges have yielded 255 or 257 Gids.

 

[surfingslovak]

I don't think that particular theory is correct.

Right, I have to admit then that I'm stumped. Tom's Leaf has held more than one surprise in store. I don't see any obvious reason why his car should be down two capacity bars.

 

[abasile]

Regular sustained hill climbs, and subsequent regen sessions, could affect battery longevity, and they would not necessarily show up in the energy economy figure. At least not in a very significant way. I've been monitoring data from abasile's Leaf, and found it surprising how exceptionally well it is holding up. This would seem to contradict what I said above, but it's possible that it's that much cooler where abasile lived or that there is some other qualitative difference.

Yes, I am thankful to have not lost a whole lot of capacity, as I routinely discharge down to LBW or a little lower. Lately my LEAF's gid count has actually gone back up slightly, apparently as the temperatures have cooled.

There are multiple factors that may be helping our LEAF's battery longevity. It is indeed quite a bit cooler here than TomT's home, with substantial nighttime temperature drops. (Even compared in Running Springs, the next closest town, Arrowbear Lake has a cooler microclimate.) Parking outside (I have no garage) allows for maximal nighttime cooling. Like Stoaty, I've been avoiding leaving the car at work down in the valley on hot days (by bicycling down to work and having my wife meet me in the LEAF in the evening). However, even when I do park at work, it's almost always in shade. I also try to limit power to 20-30 kW on the continuous mountain climb, requiring frequent use of turnouts to let faster cars pass. At home, we try to avoid letting the car sit with more than about 60% charge (in gids), and often less.

All of that said, it would give me comfort to have a reasonable battery "refresh" option available when I need it, which I will if I want to hold onto this car for the long haul.

 

[ChargedUp]

There will always be outliers, and while they shouldn't be discounted, it's more important to make sure that the majority of use cases and local conditions are reasonably well covered. I have a theory about Tom's situation, but it's just that, a theory. I believe that he lives on a hill. Friends of mine live on a hill as well, it's approximately 500 feet of elevation difference. Their Leaf has seen fairly dramatic range loss, despite of living in a cooler climate when compared to the valley most of us are in. It gets foggy up there too. Regular sustained hill climbs, and subsequent regen sessions, could affect battery longevity, and they would not necessarily show up in the energy economy figure. At least not in a very significant way.

I don't think that particular theory is correct. My Leaf spends 25% of its time in the San Fernando Valley (in the sun) and 75% near Santa Monica, which is signficantly cooler. My commute involves about 1300 feet elevation gain per day (granted, I keep power output to about 25 kw even on steep hills, resulting in slower speeds). If I use Van Nuys, my model predicts 252 Gids for my total mileage, length of ownership, efficiency of driving and days in the sun. If I use Santa Monica, the result is 255 Gids. Using a weighted average, I get 254 Gids (90.4% remaining capacity) as the model prediction. Recent full charges have yielded 255 or 257 Gids.

Since we are all tossing out theories based on completely inadequate data...

I had a Ryobi Cordless Raidi with a relatively new Li Battery (yes I know these batteries have no relationship to LEAF/Volt etc. batteries). One day while working on a gutter I set the radio down on the roof, for about 5-10 minutes. The radio suddenly quit, which was surprising because the battery was freshly charged, fairly new, and that battery had proven to be reliable. I went over and picked up the radio and I could not believe how the battery was. Yes the roof was hot and the battery even hotter. And that was it, that battery was done, forever.

Conclusion: It was a reminder to me that heat, especially extreme heat can absolutely kill batteries, in a very short time. You have no way of knowing, what "extreme heat" conditions the battery may been exposed to. Even living in a moderate climate, someone that parks in a lot that gets extremely hot because of the particular materials used could experience more rapid degradation. Parking lots can get to 150-160f easily.

 

[Stoaty]

Conclusion: It was a reminder to me that heat, especially extreme heat can absolutely kill batteries, in a very short time. You have no way of knowing, what "extreme heat" conditions the battery may been exposed to. Even living in a moderate climate, someone that parks in a lot that gets extremely hot because of the particular materials used could experience more rapid degradation. Parking lots can get to 150-160f easily.

That's the first theory I have heard that will be hard to disprove, since we have no way of knowing, what "extreme heat" conditions the battery may been exposed to

Seriously, that could very well be the explanation for some of the outliers, especially those in hot climates like Phoenix. I don't take my Leaf when the predicted high is greater than 95 degrees; your theory provides support for my behavior. :lol: