Are there any future benefit to install a 240V/60A outlet for L2 Charger?

[Londondrug]

I know to install a 240/50A outlet is good enough for the Nissan leaf (MAX27.5A) and other ev cars right now. Is it necessary to install a 60A outlet comparing to a standard 50A one? It is about $300 more from the quotation . If the technology improve in 5-10 years or so, a 240V/ 60A outlet will benefit a charger station and ev cars at that time ?

 

[cornbinder89]

It is a good question, and hard to answer. a 50 amp circuit is good for 40 amps continuous and 60, a cont load of 48 amps. Just as my level 2 EVSE can be set from 32 amps to 10 amps , all connected to a 50 amp branch circuit. So even if you go with 50 amp, you would be likely fine for future EV's. On the other hand, you'll be limited to 40 amps if the car is capable of more.
How you answer that question is a personal one. Would you be fine with what a 50 amp circuit or would you regret not installing a 60.
In most cases a 60 amp capable EVSE would be hardwired not plug in.
The cost is really in the copper wires and the larger conduit. If you wanted to you could run the heavy wire and conduit and put a 50 amp breaker and outlet on either end of the wire, and can upgrade to a 60 amp breaker and a hardwired EVSE at the time it becomes needed.
The J1772 spec tops out at 70 amps IIRC (might be 80) but then you need cabling for 100 amps
Me, I'm "one and done" and don't like to pull stuff out and replace. I would likely stick with 50 amps, but i got lucky and was given most of the stuff I needed to run 50 amps, If I had been given the stuff for 60, I would have run it and put a 50 amp breaker ahead of it.
Only you can answer for you.

 

[Stanton]

What is the size/capacity of your breaker box? For example, you don't want to be consuming half of your home's capacity at any given time. If you can't get enough charge from a 240v/50a outlet on a daily/nightly basis, then your daily driving habits are way beyond the norm.

 

[Londondrug]

It is a good question, and hard to answer. a 50 amp circuit is good for 40 amps continuous and 60, a cont load of 48 amps. Just as my level 2 EVSE can be set from 32 amps to 10 amps , all connected to a 50 amp branch circuit. So even if you go with 50 amp, you would be likely fine for future EV's. On the other hand, you'll be limited to 40 amps if the car is capable of more.
How you answer that question is a personal one. Would you be fine with what a 50 amp circuit or would you regret not installing a 60.
In most cases a 60 amp capable EVSE would be hardwired not plug in.
The cost is really in the copper wires and the larger conduit. If you wanted to you could run the heavy wire and conduit and put a 50 amp breaker and outlet on either end of the wire, and can upgrade to a 60 amp breaker and a hardwired EVSE at the time it becomes needed.
The J1772 spec tops out at 70 amps IIRC (might be 80) but then you need cabling for 100 amps
Me, I'm "one and done" and don't like to pull stuff out and replace. I would likely stick with 50 amps, but i got lucky and was given most of the stuff I needed to run 50 amps, If I had been given the stuff for 60, I would have run it and put a 50 amp breaker ahead of it.
Only you can answer for you.

Any chance the future plug in EVSE is able to support 60amp and do not need hardwired?

Thankyou for your response.

 

[wmcbrine]

Lots of current cars will take 48 amps -- needing a 60 amp circuit -- so it could be useful right now. Just make sure everything's wired up to that spec. E.g. you should probably use a NEMA 14-60 rather than a 14-50, if you put in an outlet.

I just saw a review of a certain EVSE that came with a 14-50 pigtail, but allowed for 48 amps "if you hardwired it". Now, the truth is that the EVSE has no way of telling if it's hardwired or not. You can replace that pigtail with a 14-60 pigtail, or whatever you like.

 

[wmcbrine]

The J1772 spec tops out at 70 amps IIRC (might be 80)

Yeah, it's 80. Although, AFAICT, nobody implements that. (Tesla did, but has since scaled back to 48, for whatever reason.)

 

[henrydehoja]

When it comes to EVSEs, another thing to consider is whether you actually need a high-powered unit. Do you really need a EVSE and a 50A circuit? 60A? 70A? Or will a small EVSE and small circuit be good enough for you?
This is a personal decision and depends on how you plan to use the car, miles driven per day, hours available to charge the car at home, urgency of charging, etc.
For example, for me, I work from home so I don't drive a lot during the week, I only charge my Leaf 2-4 hours (overnight on the EV timer) per week, and use a 240V/40A circuit for my (240V/30A) EVSE. This has been my typical setup for 5 years now and it works for me.

 

[cornbinder89]

The higher the current the more I would trust hardwireing it in over a removeable plug. Connections are the baine of all high current circuits, and the fewer the better.
14-60's aren't very common, and I think above that it is mostly pin and sleeve type.

 

[henrydehoja]

If the technology improve in 5-10 years or so, a 240V/ 60A outlet will benefit a charger station and ev cars at that time ?

I agree with @cornbinder89 on this one.
I like to track EVSE specs & prices over the years and have seen that (North American) EVSE manufacturers go for hardwired connections on units requiring a 240V circuit size above 50A. I don't see this approach changing anytime in the near decades.

 

[Londondrug]

Thanks all for your suggestions, I have decided to go with 240V-50A standard.

 

[wmcbrine]

For example, for me, I work from home so I don't drive a lot during the week, I only charge my Leaf 2-4 hours (overnight on the EV timer) per week, and use a 240V/40A circuit for my (240V/30A) EVSE. This has been my typical setup for 5 years now and it works for me.

Eh, did the Leaf ever go past 27.5 amps (6.6 kW) on the AC side? I think a 30 amp EVSE is all it can benefit from anyway.

 

[pmbdk]

Not as far as I know. But in the future no one knows, of course. I am currently using an L1 charger set at 230V@6 amps...

 

[pmbdk]

The higher the current the more I would trust hardwireing it in over a removeable plug. Connections are the baine of all high current circuits, and the fewer the better.

So true. In Denmark we are not allowed to have 10A (L1) connected more than 2 hours due to risk of fire in old installations. 6A is the maximum. Which makes it kind of weird that EV suppliers in general supply 10A L1 EVSEs...

L2 is of course something else.

 

[cornbinder89]

So true. In Denmark we are not allowed to have 10A (L1) connected more than 2 hours due to risk of fire in old installations. 6A is the maximum. Which makes it kind of weird that EV suppliers in general supply 10A L1 EVSEs...

L2 is of course something else.

Circuits here in the US according to electrical code, can be loaded no more than 80% of the circuits rating if used continuously. That is why a 50 amp supply can only be used with a 40 amp EVSE, 40 amp to a 32 EVSE etc. It sounds like something similar where you are. I don't remember off hand what the time limit is for the cut-off of being a "peak load" vs continuous for circuit lay out, I just figure on the more conservative continuous load. Sounds like what is going on for you and older houses.

 

[cornbinder89]

Eh, did the Leaf ever go past 27.5 amps (6.6 kW) on the AC side? I think a 30 amp EVSE is all it can benefit from anyway.

Sage brush and I had a thread on that. Of course the US government ran some tests. The answer is yes, the Leaf will draw about 30 amps on a 208 volt circuit. (just shy of 6.6Kw input) and less on a 240 volt input. I think that is why many aftermarket chargers have a 32 amp setting.
The issue of plugs vs hard wire, is plugs must maintain there contact by the spring force of the outlet side of the pair. as any loss in conductivity makes heat and heat expand as softens the metal, you get a feedback where it keeps getting hotter until you get a fire. Hard wire connections are held in place by screws that don't weaken or get disconnected. It is why you don't or shouldn't have a problem with 200 amps or more from the meter. High amp plugs are more of the Pin and sleeve with a threaded collar to keep everything tight. But even those aren't real common and are real expensive.
50 amp is about the limit of my comfort level. Welders, stoves,or EVSE's that aren't plugged and unplugged often I see no problem. If you are needing to swap plugs often, I'd either get a 2nd EVSE or in the case the outlet is used to two things (like a drier and to charge an EV) I would run another circuit. Just not worth the risk of fire.

 

[SageBrush]

Any chance the future plug in EVSE is able to support 60amp and do not need hardwired?

I've read (no personal experience) that a 14-60 receptacle is available in Canada. I doubt it will migrate to the US, but you never know.

You asked in your OP whether a 60 A circuit is "necessary" for future proofing. Of course not. For much the same reasons that a 50A circuit is not "necessary" today. This all depends on how thirsty the car is and how the car is used.

A possible use case for a larger circuit in the future is Electric truck ownership. Those vehicles consume about 50% more energy per mile, so all else being equal, if a person "needs" 50A for an EV car today, they will "need" around 75A for a truck. But here is the thing: A LEAF only pulls up to 27A, so the same owner who now buys a truck would be pulling about 27*1.5 = 40A for the same charging experience -- right about what a 14-50 receptacle can supply.

Your electrician is FOS. Put in a hardwired 60A circuit, save the GFI breaker cost, and expect to not pay more. An electrician might be imagining expensive and hard to install #4 AWG Romex for a 60A circuit in a residential setting, but a smart approach is is to use #6 Flex. Also keep in mind that a receptacle install requires 4 wires, while hardwired is 3 wires because the neutral is omitted. #6/2 THHN FMC is about $4 a foot online, depending on wire length.

TANGENT
I've read that EV manufacturers are slowly migrating to OBC hardwire that can handle up to 80A (thus requiring an 100A circuit.) The first movers are EV trucks. It is only my opinion, but I think this movement reflects a desire to support whole home V2H and is not simply to charge the vehicle.

Disclaimer: My opinions are for US residential installations

 

[SageBrush]

I don't remember off hand what the time limit is for the cut-off of being a "peak load" vs continuous for circuit lay out,

3+ hours of steady load is continuous and requires a 0.8 derating. As an aside, this is why a 40A range can be put on a 40A circuit. People cook for more than 3 hours straight, but it is presumed that the range electrical load is not constant.

 

[cornbinder89]

An electrician might be imaging expensive and hard to install #4 AWG Romex for a 60A circuit in a residential setting, but a smart approach is is to use #6 Flex. Also keep in mind that a receptacle install requires 4 wires, while hardwired is 3 wires because the neutral is omitted. #6/2 THHN FMC is about $4 a foot online, depending on wire length.

Sage, I thought a 60 amp would require 4ga THHN, what is the "6Flex" you mentioned? Not questioning, just trying to learn. Not heard of that wire.
edit
Ahh, looked up FMC flexible metal conduit, or as I learned armored cable.
Likely my 6 ga would handle the 60 amps I'll have to look at the insulation. Still I am conservative with my wiring.

 

[deathplaybanjo]

I know to install a 240/50A outlet is good enough for the Nissan leaf (MAX27.5A) and other ev cars right now. Is it necessary to install a 60A outlet comparing to a standard 50A one? It is about $300 more from the quotation . If the technology improve in 5-10 years or so, a 240V/ 60A outlet will benefit a charger station and ev cars at that time ?

my charger is hardwired. 2 110V-lines run to a junction box below the charger, and from there its all wiring from the charger itself.

 

[SageBrush]

Sage, I thought a 60 amp would require 4ga THHN, what is the "6Flex" you mentioned? Not questioning, just trying to learn. Not heard of that wire.

I'm not proud, and it would take a long time to list all my mistakes. So question away, and thanks ahead of time for catching errors.

'Flex' is shorthand for flexible (either metal like MC or plastic like LFNC) conduit. It's use lets us run individual conductors rather than cable. Cables like 'Romex' (NM-B usually) or UF have ampacities read from the 60C column of Table 310.16 of the NEC, while conductors run in Flex use the 75C column. The 90C THHN rating can be used for temperature corrections and number of conductor adjustments, but the lessor 75C column for ampacity almost always prevails because of the typical 75C lugs and termination points (110.14.C)

"#6 Flex' refers to flexible conduit with #6 THHN conductors and a #10 ground. You can pull your own conductors or buy it pre-made. For a hardwired install, either way you end up with 6/2 + ground