Battery SOH in LeafSpy - concerned

[Talon610]

I am looking for some thoughts from experienced Leaf owners on my new car... Here's the story...

I purchased a used 2012 Leaf SV two weeks ago. The vehicle had just about 9300 miles on the odometer. The owner had passed away suddenly and his son was looking to sell the car. I went to check it out and learned that the late owner had the car since 2015. A bill of sale from then indicates the car had 8200 miles on the odometer at the time of sale in 2015. Yes, he drove it about 1110 miles in 8 years.

The son (who lives in another state) confirmed that his father had only used the car for "trips to Walmart". Additionally, the car's state inspection tag (required here in PA) had expired in July of 2020. So, the car had been sitting in the driveway (not garaged) for some time. The son reported that the 12 volt battery was dead but, held enough charge for a test drive. The car drove perfectly with no suspicious noises or concerns. The car was dirty but mechanically in excellent condition inside and out.

Most importantly, the dashboard indicator showed 12 bars of battery health.

When fully charged, the GOM showed an estimated 82 miles of range. I did not run a Carfax report but, a quick check through the VinCheck website showed no concerns with accidents or salvage. However, I did not have an OBDII dongle or Leaf Spy at the time to do any deep dive into the electrical systems.

Based on the asking price of $4,000, I decided to make the purchase. The next day, my wife and I retrieved the car and drove the 100 miles back to our house without incident (the 12 volt held). It took a while as we only have the L1/L2 charging option on this model (no CHAdeMO).

Last week, I replaced the 12 volt with an Ohmmu LiFe unit and had the car inspected and bought up to speed on outstanding service issues/recalls with a Nissan dealer. No problems were found and the car passed inspection. I also bought an LELink OBDII dongle for use with Leaf Spy Pro.

Here is my concern: On March 29th, Leaf Spy showed SOH of 81.43% (at 9406 miles on the odometer). Today, Leaf Spy shows SOH at 78.56% (at 9529 miles). The Battery Capacity Level Gauge display in the car still shows a full 12 bars of Battery Health.

So - first, why would the car show 12 bars if the health is truly at 78%? Does it need to see that level for 30 days before changing (I think I read that somewhere?)

Second - This seems like a serious drop in battery health in a short period of time. I'm thinking the long periods of inactivity in a 11 year old battery would be a factor as well. I am trying not to freak out but, I am concerned that my bargain purchase may not have been as good as I thought...

Any insights or opinions would be welcome.

Thanks so much!

 

[LeftieBiker]

Welcome. The 2011 through March 2013 Leafs were manufactured with a battery chemistry that is VERY prone to degradation, especially in warmer climates. As you have learned, the odometer reading for a Leaf is really useful only to establish when the mileage warranty ends. All things considered, you didn't make a terrible purchase. However, I can understand your disappointment at seeing the battery health decline so quickly. With a 12 bar reading on the capacity gauge (which is the stack of TINY bars just outboard of the much larger "charge" or "fuel" bars) it seems like that either deliberately or by some service bay accident, the Battery Management System (BMS) has been reset, resulting in a false 12 bar reading that will last a bit longer, until the BMS re-learns the battery's actual capacity. This can take weeks, or up to six months. I'm going to link my used Leaf buying guide shortly. It will answer more questions about your car.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=538030

 

[Talon610]

Thanks Leftie! I appreciate the insight.

I wonder if maybe by sitting with a dead battery for a long time, the BMS would have somehow been effected to the extent it reset?

At any rate, I will watch to see when the Battery Capacity Level Gauge finally reflects a number of bars in line with the Leaf Spy app.

My bigger concern is whether or not the battery continues to show degradation at this current rate. Losing three percent in a week or so doesn't bode well. Again, the extended period of non-use coupled with the overall age of the battery are factors I probably should have weighed more heavily.

All that being said, it is a wonderful vehicle. It serves our needs as a local "errand runner" perfectly. In fact, we named her "GiGi"... which is short for Grocery Getter.

 

[GerryAZ]

I doubt that there was a reset of the LBC (lithium battery controller as Nissan calls it or BMS--battery management system, generic term). It is likely that the battery deteriorated slowly while being parked and now the LBC is learning the capacity as the car is driven. I suspect you will see a little more drop in SOH, but not a lot and after some time you will see a loss of one or two capacity bars. It should still be an excellent car for your local needs.

Except for the deterioration of the traction battery in my hot climate, my 2011 was a nicer car than my 2015. It had features that were dropped after 2012, such as adjustable headlights (electric control knob on dash which would raise and lower the light aim to compensate for luggage/passenger weight), electric parking brake (instead of foot pedal that took up leg room in the 2015), aluminum body panels rather than steel on 2013 and later, generally better fit and finish, and light-colored seats that were relatively easy to clean because they were made from recycled plastic.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I'm going to disagree with Gerry here, because I can't picture the car sitting from a time when it had 12 bars, to one in which it has lost about 25% capacity. Sure it can happen, but odds are such a car would have developed numerous problems.

 

[Stanton]

I agree with @GerryAZ: all bets are off when a car has set that long with that little driving. The BMS is just playing "catch up".
Having said that, it sounds like you got a good car for the money...and @GerryAZ did a good job of describing all the reasons why I kept my 2011 (and upgraded the battery pack)!

 

[Talon610]

Update (4/13/23)

Thanks for all your insights! I truly appreciate your thoughts and expereinces.

As of today the degradation of the battery continues as follows:

Date ODO SOH% (from LeafSpy Pro)

3/29/23 9406 81.43%

4/3/23 9529 78.56%

4/13/23 9642 76.08%

This seems like a concerning amount of SOH loss. GOM continues to show 12 bars.

Any additional thoughts? I will continue to monitor.

Thanks again!

 

[LeftieBiker]

Either the BMS was reset (and this can happen by accident, although usually it's deliberate) and this is fairly normal behavior for that circumstance, or Gerry is correct and the car is just now 'learning' the actual capacity after sitting degrading for an extended period while Off. In the end, it may not matter which is the case, as the end result may end up being the same...a Leaf with a lot less capacity than was displayed by the car before purchase.

 

[GerryAZ]

As long as the car has adequate range for your use, don't worry too much about the LEAF Spy numbers. The actual capacity of the battery is what you get with your driving/charging use regardless of the LEAF Spy numbers. Based upon your latest numbers, I stand by my previous comments--I don't think the LBC was reset to hide deterioration. It looks like the SOH rate of decline is dropping (almost 3% in 5 days at first and then only about 2.5% in the next 10 days) so I think you will find that SOH drops a little more and then stabilizes to continued very slow decline. I suspect your car will drop its first capacity bar fairly soon and it may drop the second bar a month or two later. I describe my experience in the paragraph below to give some insight behind my opinions:

The original battery in my 2011 lost its first capacity bar a little more than a year after purchase. The second bar dropped about a month later. The third bar dropped at about 2 years and the fourth bar dropped soon thereafter. I was still making my 52-mile round trip (26 each way, mostly highway) commute with 8 capacity bars and normal air conditioning use from July until the battery was replaced by Nissan in October. The replacement battery was still at 11 capacity bars when the car met its demise 15 months after installation.

 

[Talon610]

Another update...

The Battery Capacity Level Gauge finally gave up a bar on 4/19/23... It now shows at 11 Bars capacity.

The LeafSpy data is as follows:

4/19/23 - Mileage 9769 - SoH = 76.01%
4/23/23 - Mileage 9834 - SoH = 75.75%
5/6/23 - Mileage 10063 - SoH= 75.39%

So, it appears that Gerry was exactly right about the degradation slowing and stabilizing. We have also been diligent about only charging when the battery has discharged to at least 50% (or usually lower) and then only charging to a maximum of 80%.

Once my wife and I got comfortable with Eco mode and effective regen techniques, we have been able to maintain 4.0 miles per KWH. I think that's pretty good from what I understand. Would love to try for 5.0 some day!

I do have a separate question that I haven't been able to find an answer to here on the site... Is there any information that would help me interpret the Trip and Charge Logs from LeafSpy? I am looking to understand how each column is defined so I can accurately track my charging sessions and calculate costs.

Again, thanks for your insights and I appreciate any guidance you can offer!

 

[GerryAZ]

I cannot help on charge logs because I have not had much success in getting LEAF Spy to stay connected while charging. It does log everything while driving so I will try to look at some data files to answer your column questions when I get a chance.

I am glad that it looks like your battery is stable and in good condition (for its age). If you are OK with ECO mode, then stay with it. I personally never liked the accelerator response so I used D mode with the 2011. The 2015 had B mode with increased the regeneration when releasing the accelerator without pressing the brake so I used that mode all the time and continue to use B mode with the 2019 (which has more aggressive regeneration because of the larger battery and more powerful motor). ECO mode reduces the power consumption of the HVAC system so you may find that it takes longer to cool or warm the interior. My experience is that overall energy consumption is not much different between ECO, D, and B modes because the climate control consumption is reduced once desired temperature is reached (which is sooner if ECO is not used). Also, full acceleration is available in ECO by pressing the accelerator further.

As a reminder, you can use the climate control timers to preheat or precool the interior while the car is plugged in to maximize useable range. The 2011 and 2012 have climate control timers (and remote access which is no longer available due to obsolete cellular modem) preset for 25 degrees C (77 degrees F) so there are times in the spring and fall when it may cool instead of heat or heat instead of cool--you may need to turn off the timers during those times.

 

[Goran45]

2011 Nissan leaf 24 kw son 50.85 mile 40000

 

[Jbechtold]

I am looking for some thoughts from experienced Leaf owners on my new car... Here's the story...

I purchased a used 2012 Leaf SV two weeks ago. The vehicle had just about 9300 miles on the odometer. The owner had passed away suddenly and his son was looking to sell the car. I went to check it out and learned that the late owner had the car since 2015. A bill of sale from then indicates the car had 8200 miles on the odometer at the time of sale in 2015. Yes, he drove it about 1110 miles in 8 years.

The son (who lives in another state) confirmed that his father had only used the car for "trips to Walmart". Additionally, the car's state inspection tag (required here in PA) had expired in July of 2020. So, the car had been sitting in the driveway (not garaged) for some time. The son reported that the 12 volt battery was dead but, held enough charge for a test drive. The car drove perfectly with no suspicious noises or concerns. The car was dirty but mechanically in excellent condition inside and out.

Most importantly, the dashboard indicator showed 12 bars of battery health.

When fully charged, the GOM showed an estimated 82 miles of range. I did not run a Carfax report but, a quick check through the VinCheck website showed no concerns with accidents or salvage. However, I did not have an OBDII dongle or Leaf Spy at the time to do any deep dive into the electrical systems.

Based on the asking price of $4,000, I decided to make the purchase. The next day, my wife and I retrieved the car and drove the 100 miles back to our house without incident (the 12 volt held). It took a while as we only have the L1/L2 charging option on this model (no CHAdeMO).

Last week, I replaced the 12 volt with an Ohmmu LiFe unit and had the car inspected and bought up to speed on outstanding service issues/recalls with a Nissan dealer. No problems were found and the car passed inspection. I also bought an LELink OBDII dongle for use with Leaf Spy Pro.

Here is my concern: On March 29th, Leaf Spy showed SOH of 81.43% (at 9406 miles on the odometer). Today, Leaf Spy shows SOH at 78.56% (at 9529 miles). The Battery Capacity Level Gauge display in the car still shows a full 12 bars of Battery Health.

So - first, why would the car show 12 bars if the health is truly at 78%? Does it need to see that level for 30 days before changing (I think I read that somewhere?)

Second - This seems like a serious drop in battery health in a short period of time. I'm thinking the long periods of inactivity in a 11 year old battery would be a factor as well. I am trying not to freak out but, I am concerned that my bargain purchase may not have been as good as I thought...

Any insights or opinions would be welcome.

Thanks so much!

They almost always show 12 bars. It's how Nissan avoids legitimate warranty battery replacements. The other thing they did on the 24kw batteries is start them at 26kw, so it would take longer to get "below 80%". Most leafs will NEVER show less than 12 bars. My '13 showed 12 bars while below 80%. My '18 still showed 12 bars after the battery failed! It took 4 trips to the dealer before they would acknowledge the failure. Then they simply deleted the bad module, leaving me with 80,% battery, and said, and I quote "It charges, it drives, we're done here " I traded it in to a Nissan dealer.

 

[Jnovoseljr]

I am looking for some thoughts from experienced Leaf owners on my new car... Here's the story...

I purchased a used 2012 Leaf SV two weeks ago. The vehicle had just about 9300 miles on the odometer. The owner had passed away suddenly and his son was looking to sell the car. I went to check it out and learned that the late owner had the car since 2015. A bill of sale from then indicates the car had 8200 miles on the odometer at the time of sale in 2015. Yes, he drove it about 1110 miles in 8 years.

The son (who lives in another state) confirmed that his father had only used the car for "trips to Walmart". Additionally, the car's state inspection tag (required here in PA) had expired in July of 2020. So, the car had been sitting in the driveway (not garaged) for some time. The son reported that the 12 volt battery was dead but, held enough charge for a test drive. The car drove perfectly with no suspicious noises or concerns. The car was dirty but mechanically in excellent condition inside and out.

Most importantly, the dashboard indicator showed 12 bars of battery health.

When fully charged, the GOM showed an estimated 82 miles of range. I did not run a Carfax report but, a quick check through the VinCheck website showed no concerns with accidents or salvage. However, I did not have an OBDII dongle or Leaf Spy at the time to do any deep dive into the electrical systems.

Based on the asking price of $4,000, I decided to make the purchase. The next day, my wife and I retrieved the car and drove the 100 miles back to our house without incident (the 12 volt held). It took a while as we only have the L1/L2 charging option on this model (no CHAdeMO).

Last week, I replaced the 12 volt with an Ohmmu LiFe unit and had the car inspected and bought up to speed on outstanding service issues/recalls with a Nissan dealer. No problems were found and the car passed inspection. I also bought an LELink OBDII dongle for use with Leaf Spy Pro.

Here is my concern: On March 29th, Leaf Spy showed SOH of 81.43% (at 9406 miles on the odometer). Today, Leaf Spy shows SOH at 78.56% (at 9529 miles). The Battery Capacity Level Gauge display in the car still shows a full 12 bars of Battery Health.

So - first, why would the car show 12 bars if the health is truly at 78%? Does it need to see that level for 30 days before changing (I think I read that somewhere?)

Second - This seems like a serious drop in battery health in a short period of time. I'm thinking the long periods of inactivity in a 11 year old battery would be a factor as well. I am trying not to freak out but, I am concerned that my bargain purchase may not have been as good as I thought...

Any insights or opinions would be welcome.

Thanks so much!

I have a 2011 and a 2014. I have never had this issue. My bars have always been accurate based on LeafSpy's SOH reading.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Agreed that the bars generally behave as expected. It appears that there are exceptions, but not because Nissan programmed them that way - far too many Leafs don't do that. As for the BMS relearning the capacity, I see no way to tell if what happened was a reset BMS or the process that Gerry described, because what happened after that is typical of both scenarios, apparently...

 

[leaf4eva]

The 2012 leaf I'm looking to get shows these two screenshots on the leaf spy pro app on android. Would someone know why the data isn't showing up, and anyone have screenshots of what it is supposed to look like? I would assume the 96 cells should show around 3.9V each and the battery of 12.2V seems low, shouldn't it be at least 12.6, or maybe 13.2 which the leaf dc-to-dc puts out? Many thanks.

 

[Radek Uchytil]

The 2012 leaf I'm looking to get shows these two screenshots on the leaf spy pro app on android. Would someone know why the data isn't showing up, and anyone have screenshots of what it is supposed to look like? I would assume the 96 cells should show around 3.9V each and the battery of 12.2V seems low, shouldn't it be at least 12.6, or maybe 13.2 which the leaf dc-to-dc puts out? Many thanks.

Leafspy not connected to OBD reader...