Braking?

[HungryTurkey]

So I'm on my second SL. Totaled my first Grey SL plowing into the back of an SUV the same day I had the brakes worked on a second time (first time, Dealer cited low fluid, second time, cited low fluid due to loose connection in the "junction box" or whatever it was called). I don't believe that contributed to the accident, but things happen so fast, I guess I'll never know now that it's gone to the charging station in the sky. Anyway, my replacement white SL has 370 mile on it. I had just connected from charger, gotten in and powered up. The whole damn instrument panel lit up and car wouldn't go anywhere. Did a couple of power cycles and it came on but with brake light illuminated. I put it in reverse and it went but there was no assisted braking at all and the brake power was ludicrously weak. I stopped it, power cycled and everything came up gravy. I drove it around at lunch and everything was fine. Anyone experience this? Did I try to throw it in reverse too soon in the boot process or should I take it to the dealership. I love my Leaf more than any other car I've owned but brake problems scare the crap out of me. Potential and intermittent problems even more so :\.

 

[thimel]

Check the voltage of the 12 volt battery. The car can initialize badly when the voltage is low.

 

[cwerdna]

On the 1st issue, if you haven't already, I'd file a safety complaint at http://www.safercar.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Be sure to include the details of the work done, per the receipt.

Anyway, my replacement white SL has 370 mile on it. I had just connected from charger, gotten in and powered up. The whole damn instrument panel lit up and car wouldn't go anywhere. Did a couple of power cycles and it came on but with brake light illuminated. I put it in reverse and it went but there was no assisted braking at all and the brake power was ludicrously weak.

In this case, are you sure the car was in READY mode and not ON (IG-ON in Toyota parlance)? See discussion at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=279614#p279614" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you don't have the green car w/arrows lit, you are NOT in READY.

 

[HungryTurkey]

I'm fairly certain it has enough time to finish it's bootup. Again, I may have been hasty, but I would expect killing it (nothing illuminating but the key fob detection LED and then powering up again and waiting til all lights (except the red brake warning) would've been sufficient. Post Script to the story is since this incident, I've developed the "thunk on accelerator or brake pedal tap" that others in the forum have referenced with remedies being all over the place from lube to reduction gear. Oh well. Guess I'll take it in to the Dealer. I love the Leaf, but in 3500 miles and two Leafs (RIP Alice SR1 =( ), I'm wondering about the whole brake system design.

 

[Stanton]

I'm fairly certain it has enough time to finish it's bootup. Again, I may have been hasty, but I would expect killing it (nothing illuminating but the key fob detection LED and then powering up again and waiting til all lights (except the red brake warning) would've been sufficient.

It's not really about "bootup" so much as the timing between when you press on the brake and press on the ignition button. I've only seen it a couple of times, but when it gets in that "loop" it's very weird (and tricky) :shock:
Sorry to hear about your first Leaf

 

[HungryTurkey]

Seems like there should be a firmware fix to make sure that even if your timing pressing the on button while holding the brake is too fast the car doesn't wig out. I'll check with the Dealer when I get the clunking checked out and report back their findings. If it's a one time deal, no worries... I'll be more deliberate and careful starting up. If the brakes ever did on the road what they did when the car started up after that incident, I imagine I would be in a wreck the likes of which would I shudder to think about. I mean, going 1 mph in reverse took like 3 feet to stop with brake pedal fully depressed. Again, I'll report back what if anything the dealer discovers (about all issues).

 

[HungryTurkey]

Check the voltage of the 12 volt battery. The car can initialize badly when the voltage is low.

Looks like you're on to something. They're running battery diagnostics right now and they've received a bunch of low voltage codes. Tech didn't really elaborate about it much yet as it's still being run, but good call.

 

[HungryTurkey]

Update: The day I take it in, it comes back with a bunch of low voltage codes relating to the 12 V system. The dealer chalked it up to "Sitting on the lot too long", to which I raised an eyebrow but gave the benefit of the doubt. They claimed that fixed the clunking on accel/deceleration . It didn't. So over the past week and a half, I was waiting for a chance to get it back to the dealer because my first Leaf had no such problem. Well, I was on my way to the court appointment for the wreck of the first leaf. When I started her up, The 12V and master warning lights illuminate and I lose the regen braking. I was like "great, I'll take it in after my appointment". No dice, the NAV screen goes into "warning, pull over or die!" mode (paraphrasing) and turtle mode comes on. I pull off, give it a minute, reboot and the car was back to 12V and Master Caution but at least I wouldn't have to drive it to the dealer in turtle mode (ugh!). Guy at the dealership looks at me like I'm an idiot or picky or something... I love the Leaf, but jeez, two leafs in 4 months, in eco mode with feather peddling. One requires multiple trips to dealer for brake issues before ending up in a wreck and the other apparently has a drain or short on the 12V system. I hope the technician knows what the hell he's doing. I've only had this one two weeks. Third strike and I'm invoking Lemon Law.

The sad part is, I try to be an ambassador for the Leaf... at work three people have Volts. None of them ever have their car in the shop ... It's become a running joke as the loaner red lead I'm in is now the third one they've seen me in. Someone asked me this morning, "Blue next?". Sigh....

Wish me luck. We don't exactly have the most EV-knowledgeable mechanics here in SC .

As Kermit the Frog once said,
"It ain't easy being green"...

 

[jelloslug]

Sounds like you need a different dealer.

 

[HungryTurkey]

Got her back yesterday and so far so good,

Things they did to address the 12V issues: updated software on 14V charger module and reprogrammed charger/PD module.

Things they did to address the apparently common clunk on accel/deceleration: Replaced Locks Nuts and torqued to 135ftlbs, replaced cotter Pins and greased front wheel bearing hub contact surfaces with molykote77. I know with others experiencing this issue, greasing and/or cotter pin replacement fixed it, so apparently there's clearly something up with the Smyrna built Leafs in that department. Hopefully enough data has made it back to the factory to get the issue resolved on newly manufactured vehicles.

Crossing my fingers on the Software update. I'm a whee bit skeptical, but it did improve GOM accuracy.

Following Cwerdna's recommendation, I've also filed a complaint with NHTSA. 12V power loss should not render brakes all but useless under any circumstances. Could've been a fluke and luckily it was while going 4 mph in a parking lot, but if an investigation is needed and a wreck prevented, it's all good and makes the Leaf a better car to boot.

 

[hpver]

You're not alone in having brake issues with a 2013 model. We have an S and it's now at the dealer for the second time for loss of brake fluid and the brake light and traction control lights coming on as a result. First trip to the dealer they just topped off the fluid and said low fluid was the only cause. BUT the issue happened twice after that. I topped off fluid myself and it went away, but system had lost 8 oz of brake fluid in 1 month, so we took it in. This time the dealer scoped the brake system and said fluid was leaking from the brake control unit (not sure of exact name; my wife took the car in). The part is on backorder and they don't even have a release date for it yet but are supposed to call us when they do. So we wait. At least they gave us a ICE loaner for free.

We love our leaf but with these kind of issues I'm sure glad we are leasing and did not purchase outright.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I'd be inclined to also file a safety complaint w/NHTSA once the issue is resolved. Recalls have happened for stuff a lot less serious.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Would the people with brake issues mind posting the manufacture date and location for their cars, and maybe the tail end of the VIN? It would help to see if this is an early manufacturing bug at the Smyrna plant, or an ongoing issue.

I'm feeling better about only having that annoying braking assist algorithm in Eco mode in mine...

 

[RegGuheert]

Things they did to address the 12V issues: updated software on 14V charger module and reprogrammed charger/PD module.

That's interesting. Many of us would like to have an update to our charging software. Does your documentation say specific anything about update they installed?

 

[dgpcolorado]

...Following Cwerdna's recommendation, I've also filed a complaint with NHTSA. 12V power loss should not render brakes all but useless under any circumstances. Could've been a fluke and luckily it was while going 4 mph in a parking lot, but if an investigation is needed and a wreck prevented, it's all good and makes the Leaf a better car to boot.

There are supposed to be a lot of backups on the braking system. The cascade is:

• 12 V battery powers brake assist
• DC/DC converter powers brake assist in the event of a 12 V battery failure
• A capacitor pack powers brake assist in the event of a complete 12 V systems failure.
• The hydraulic brake system will stop the car (albeit with a lot of pedal pressure needed) if the capacitor backup is discharged.

That's how it is supposed to work anyway.

 

[hpver]

Would the people with brake issues mind posting the manufacture date and location for their cars, and maybe the tail end of the VIN? It would help to see if this is an early manufacturing bug at the Smyrna plant, or an ongoing issue.

I'm feeling better about only having that annoying braking assist algorithm in Eco mode in mine...

We leased our Leaf in early March 2013 and we're in CA, so it is surely among the first made at the Smyrna plant. Don't have any VIN info as it's sitting at the dealer. One thing I neglected to mention in my first post is that when the brake lights came on we also lost all braking regen. Adding fluid solved that issue also.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Se if you have a state Lemon Law that will get you a new car.

 

[HungryTurkey]

Things they did to address the 12V issues: updated software on 14V charger module and reprogrammed charger/PD module.

That's interesting. Many of us would like to have an update to our charging software. Does your documentation say specific anything about update they installed?

They didn't put any version details on my paperwork. Next time I'm in the shop, I'll see if I can get that information, maybe talk to the mechanic (my dealer only has 2 Leaf-certified techs).

I worked in the automotive industry on the manufacturing side for 12 years. I now work in Electric Bus manufacturing. I know there are invariably glitches and problems in early versions of ambitious designs. I know Nissan will have it right by the time they get to their 250,000th Leaf. I'm sure their engineers are learning tons. I just would've thought that the braking system would've been less prone to issues... Regen or not.

I still love my Leaf (especially, now that it is back in my possession), but right now, I'll stay in leases instead of buying.

But much like the first gen Prius was kinda' meh, it's now quite the reliable ride. So will the Leaf become... hopefully in 2015 when my Lease is up and it's time to get in a new one.

 

[HungryTurkey]

Well.. Take three... Leaving work Friday (fully topped off on 220V), the 12V master caution illuminates, along with a battery (pun intended) of other cautions (Traction control, traction control warning, you're going to die screen, etc). Also of note during this stage... similar to the second go around, brake resistance was absent. While I was in park, the brake pedal literally went to the floor, no resistance or pushback (kinda like when it took 10 feet to stop at 2mph the second time). I call the dealer, have it towed. I'm back in the cigarette smoke-smelling loaner 2012 SV. They're supposed to work on it today an lemme at least know what's up.

If they don't perma-fix this 12V non-charge issue, I'll be starting lemon-law proceedings. My first SL was a dream until it turned into a crushed can. This one has been a flippin' nightmare.

I'm also gonna' try and call the Smyrna plant manager and see if I can't get him to send an engineer down to oversee repair given the seriousness of the brake issue when 12V is gone. Since I'm in upstate SC, it's a fairly short haul to Smyrna, and the plant ops mgmt. usually likes to see stuff like this so they can prevent it in future builds.

And now I'm the butt of new jokes regarding the silly "Zero Emissions" graphic. They're like "my Twin Diesel blah blah is zero emissions too, when it doesn't run!".
/sigh.

 

[HungryTurkey]

Got a call from the dealer. They called the Nissan "tech line", whatever that is, and came to the conclusion replacing the 12V battery would fix my woes. Color me skeptical at this point. I mean, aren't bad 12V Lead Acid batteries rather easy to diagnose? And that still doesn't answer braking power is non-existent and the pedal literally goes to the floor in this condition... If it was relying on hydraulic mechanical backup brakes, well.. I know how those feel.. I've been around the block... my first car had non-power assisted brakes (and it was a 302 V-8 haha) I had to brake early and hard in that boat. But when the pedal goes to the floor and the car keeps-a-rollin... well, disconcerting is all, especially after being in one wreck already.