Buying a new leaf and cold weather question

[darandon]

Hello everyone,

I hope this question is in the right place for you leaf owners who have more experience with the car than me

I dont own a leaf and am thinking of getting one. (Probably 2013 model) My one concern is the distance and the performance of the vehicle in winter conditions. I'm from Ontario here in Canada and sadly there arent that many charging stations around. I would use the vehicle as a main commuter vehicle to and from work. The unfortunate thing is that my daily commute will range roughly 120km = 75 miles (round trip) :? During summer, spring and fall I'm sure the leaf will be able to handle it. I will be driving it through the city streets and side country roads so the max speed will be around 80kmph = 50mph when the roads are open and bumper to bumper stop and go when in the city.

My concern is in the winter if the vehicle is going to be able to survive the distance staying out in the cold outdoors for 8hrs while i'm at work (no plugs at all near the building or charging stations ) when the temperatures hit -20 degrees Celsius = -4 F, and have to drive the returning 60km= 37.5miles back.

There are no hills nearby so the whole drive is flat. So far the only thing I was thinking was to get the little honda generator and run it over winter when its very cold when the car is parked at work for few hrs to juice the battery up a little. Do you guys think the generator can fit in the hood compartment of the leaf like many of you have managed to fit the charging brick in there for theft prevention reasons?

Or do you have any other ideas like workarounds for this type of scenario? The company is not willing to install a charging station

Sorry for making this a novel I wanted to be as descriptive as possible.

Thanks for your input ahead of time.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The little generators won't fit under the hood of a 2011-2012 without some very creative help (like replacing the wet 12 volt with a tiny lithium one of the same capacity).

The 2013 may have the charger under the hood, instead of the trunk area, so I suspect it will be more crowded there.

You can carry the Honda in the trunk, and pull it out, start it up, and chain / cable lock it to the car while charging for a few hours.

Then, you'll have some reserve power to preheat the car before going home. But, I would try it first without all this expense and hassle. Just drive slower going home, and use just the steering wheel and seat heaters. Bundle up, and enjoy the fogged up windows (kidding).

 

[jkirkebo]

You can't do 75 miles in -20C temps. Forget the generator, if you need one, get a Volt instead.

But you don't need access to a charging station either, a simple 120V plug will do fine. You should have no problem doing the commute even in -20C after 8 hours of L1 charging.

If no L1, forget the Leaf. It you really want an EV, order the cheapest Tesla Model S ($57400 before $7500 tax credit). It will do just fine.

 

[darandon]

Thanks for the response Tony and congrats on your new 2012 leaf

I am gonna have to be driving it very slow in the winter to make it. As for chaining the generator to the Leaf's wheel that is not a bad idea except for some moron that can easily put something like dirt, sugar or something that could contaminate the fuel of the generator or damage it permanently. This worries me a lot.

Do you loose a lot of charge when the car is sitting out there in the cold for 8 hours? If it doesnt loose that much of a charge then I think I might have to try it but trying a $40k investment here in canada and if it doesnt make it will be like a big kick in the you know what :?

I might have to keep my current car for the winter then or something but unfortunately I dont live on a farm with lots of space

I just wanted to know for some more winter input on the car's distance/range capability with its being parked outside. I know one of our leaf bloggers did the test here in Ottawa for you but I just wanted to hear from more than one person

 

[garsh]

I took delivery of my Leaf at the beginning of April, so I missed the worst winter weather, but we did have some below-freezing mornings (and probably in the 50's F on the way home). I have a 60 mile round-trip commute. Mostly highway, but I kept my speed at 55mph. In that weather, I could NOT make the entire trip on an 80% charge. I didn't have to charge to 100%, but I am worried that this might be necessary in even colder weather. And I did not use the heater for those trips - only the heated seats & steering wheel.

If you really want to consider the Leaf, I suggest waiting until winter and then borrowing a demo from the dealer to test-drive your commute. Your best bet would be to have your employer commit to provide you a regular 120v outlet that you can use with the supplied L1 charger - then you don't have to worry about making the entire round trip on a single charge.

 

[jkirkebo]

To do 75 miles in -20C you'd have to go no faster than 40mph and not use the heater at all. I tried to go 78 miles once, in -8C weather, with minimal heater use (just to keep the windshield from freezing over on the inside from my condensing breath). I kept the speed at 50mph max and the car turtled after 77 miles. You just can't do 75 miles in -20C. At least not unless you install a Webasto diesel heater and keep under 40mph the whole trip...

 

[dgpcolorado]

You can't do 75 miles in -20C temps. Forget the generator, if you need one, get a Volt instead.

But you don't need access to a charging station either, a simple 120V plug will do fine. You should have no problem doing the commute even in -20C after 8 hours of L1 charging.

If no L1, forget the Leaf. It you really want an EV, order the cheapest Tesla Model S ($57400 before $7500 tax credit). It will do just fine.

(No federal tax credit in Canada; I think there is an EV incentive in BC though.)

I agree, this just isn't a practical winter commute (what if it is snowing?). Even if it was marginally possible the first year, what about when the battery loses some capacity? A Volt is a much better option, or a Tesla if you can handle the very high cost and they begin selling them in Canada.

Sorry, sometimes the LEAF just won't work for long commutes in cold climates.

 

[darandon]

Thanks for the response everyone.

Every one has been telling me that electric cars here in canada are not going to be the wise solution especially when its your primary car, yet I seem to be very interested by the whole concept of an electric car.

I like the concept of the volt but for long distance driving a prius is much more worth it. Having to tank up with premium gas kills the whole electric drive purpose (at least in my books only... sorry to all the volt fans, I got nothing against you I just dont seem to feel compatible with it)

Also we have an $8500 government subsidy but the leaf here for some odd reason is costing much more than for you guys in the states :? so the car at the end of the day with all taxes is almost spot on $40K here.

What I did find was a qick charge station 5-10 miles from where i work so that might make things work. I just dont know how will that affect the battery of the leaf to charge it every day in the winter season so that I can make it home. I havent done my homework if quick charge stations are harmfull to the battery or not (1 per day just before you drive home).


Just to clarify... on a weather that is above freezing ( something around 40F or up)temperatures 60-75 miles is a go? I said 75 miles just to be on the safe side. The actual value is 64 miles.

 

[garsh]

Just to clarify... on a weather that is above freezing ( something around 40F or up)temperatures 60-75 miles is a go? I said 75 miles just to be on the safe side. The actual value is 64 miles.

Yes, that should work. I've driven 60 miles in that weather, and the GOM will still have a bar or two left.

 

[Herm]

I like the concept of the volt but for long distance driving a prius is much more worth it. Having to tank up with premium gas kills the whole electric drive purpose

The Volt shines for everyday use, very few people drive long distance everyday.. Get a Cruze Eco for long distance driving and a Prius or Volt for lots of city driving. Did you know that using premium in the Volt actually saves you money?. The Volt gets decent hwy mileage once it is in the hybrid mode, in the BEV mode its unbeatable since it uses no gas.

 

[darandon]

I like the concept of the volt but for long distance driving a prius is much more worth it. Having to tank up with premium gas kills the whole electric drive purpose

The Volt shines for everyday use, very few people drive long distance everyday.. Get a Cruze Eco for long distance driving and a Prius or Volt for lots of city driving. Did you know that using premium in the Volt actually saves you money?. The Volt gets decent hwy mileage once it is in the hybrid mode, in the BEV mode its unbeatable since it uses no gas.

You are absolutely right. Its a nice car and yes the premium fuel saves you $$ but anything past the 30+ miles that it goes on electric drive and im driving a premium gas car with a 40mpg economy. A prius is 1/2 the price with a 50mpg economy on regular fuel. If my commute was 1/2 what it is today and if im 6 inches shorter (biggest reason for not getting the volt) I would be considering one. I can fit in the prius and in the leaf but the volt is a really tight squeeze :? which is why the leaf is on the top of my list now

Thanks for the input everyone and I really like the community here at the forum.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Thanks for the response everyone.

Every one has been telling me that electric cars here in canada are not going to be the wise solution especially when its your primary car, yet I seem to be very interested by the whole concept of an electric car.

I like the concept of the volt but for long distance driving a prius is much more worth it. Having to tank up with premium gas kills the whole electric drive purpose (at least in my books only... sorry to all the volt fans, I got nothing against you I just dont seem to feel compatible with it)

Also we have an $8500 government subsidy but the leaf here for some odd reason is costing much more than for you guys in the states :? so the car at the end of the day with all taxes is almost spot on $40K here.

What I did find was a quick charge station 5-10 miles from where i work so that might make things work. I just dont know how will that affect the battery of the leaf to charge it every day in the winter season so that I can make it home. I havent done my homework if quick charge stations are harmful to the battery or not (1 per day just before you drive home).

A QC in cold weather won't harm the battery and shouldn't take very long if you only need a little bit of charge to deal with snowy weather or heating.

Just to clarify... on a weather that is above freezing ( something around 40F or up)temperatures 60-75 miles is a go? I said 75 miles just to be on the safe side. The actual value is 64 miles.

64 miles should be easy in cool weather on dry pavement at moderate speeds of 60 mph or less. I find that I can do 65-75 miles in 20ºF to 30ºF on dry roads. (That's with several thousand feet of elevation change but also at high altitude, so it may be something of a wash.)

One thing to be aware of is that using the cabin heater on the current LEAF is a range killer. The 2013 LEAF will reportedly have a more efficient heater—probably some sort of heat pump. I find that I don't need to use the heater while driving because I preheat while plugged-in and then just use the seat and steering wheel heater, which take very little energy. However, I live in sunny Colorado: cold plus sun can be quite pleasant. For you, after your car is parked, unplugged, at work you will likely need to use the cabin heater some to get the car warmed up some, even if you dress warmly.

Access to a reliable QC station should make your winter commute possible, even easy. It is a bit of a nuisance but having the QC station should give you some peace of mind once you get used to the range of a LEAF. So, I guess the question is whether or not the QC station is reliable and is it affordable to charge there?

 

[dgpcolorado]

So far as the higher cost of the LEAF in Canada, I have two theories:

1) The cost may be higher in Canada due to import duties or taxes of some sort; last I checked the Canadian dollar was close to parity with the US dollar so that ought not to be a reason.

2) Nissan may be subsidizing the price of the LEAF in the USA more than in Canada because they view it as important for the car to be a success in the US, this country being a very large and influential market.

 

[darandon]

So far as the higher cost of the LEAF in Canada, I have two theories:

1) The cost may be higher in Canada due to import duties or taxes of some sort; last I checked the Canadian dollar was close to parity with the US dollar so that ought not to be a reason.

2) Nissan may be subsidizing the price of the LEAF in the USA more than in Canada because they view it as important for the car to be a success in the US, this country being a very large and influential market.

Yea I kinda think you are right with some of this. The taxes are slightly higher here but not that high to get the price of the car through the roof like it is now. The only difference between a US leaf and Canadian Leaf is daylight running lights and a different sim card in the car.

As for Nissan subsidizing the USA Leaf I can agree with that. I have yet to see an ad for one in any of the mediums here. The dealers cant offer any discounts. No employee discount deals like they have on the new Altima or new grad sales. The financing is insane. 5.9% lease or 6.49% finance and they are not willing to budge. I look at what you guys have in the states and its like a different car there... I sure hope that with the 2013 models which I will probably wait for they change things up and make things more affordable because that is the only way they can get individuals to actually buy the cars here. I dont think many of you will buy a $40K car or buy the leaf without any of your incentives that you received for yours.

I sure hope Nissan Canada is reading these forums and has something up their sleeve because I love their plan/concept of a pure electric car and think it can be the next revolution like toyota had with the prius. But until there are some price reductions and better plans for affordability the competition will keep on winning the market. Example: the new prius C has the same incentives that a corolla has, it has the same grad discounts and you can even drop the price a little if you were to be serious with the dealer which results in them selling like hot cakes. (4.9% lease 5.1%finance rates for that and in many cases those can be negotiated)

my 2 cents

 

[Herm]

You are absolutely right. Its a nice car and yes the premium fuel saves you $$ but anything past the 30+ miles that it goes on electric drive and im driving a premium gas car with a 40mpg economy.

Obviously if you are only getting 30 miles on a Volt (many are getting 50) then you will only get 62 miles in a Leaf.. and worse in the Canadian arctic winter. Is that enough for your commute?

Are you interested in the regular Prius, the V or C?

 

[darandon]

You are absolutely right. Its a nice car and yes the premium fuel saves you $$ but anything past the 30+ miles that it goes on electric drive and im driving a premium gas car with a 40mpg economy.

Obviously if you are only getting 30 miles on a Volt (many are getting 50) then you will only get 62 miles in a Leaf.. and worse in the Canadian arctic winter. Is that enough for your commute?

Are you interested in the regular Prius, the V or C?

Well I guess I will repeat myself. My main issue with the Volt is that I cannot physically fit in it. I am too tall for it. My main intention was to look for a gasoline free vehicle. I really do not want to be bashing or sound like im bashing the volt. Its a great car, just not for me. As for the prius... If I wanted a car that has gasoline in it I would have purchased the prius C.

Also I dont seem to consider the south western Ontario region as the Arctic but it does get cold sometimes and I like to plan for the worst case scenario when purchasing a BEV.

 

[SierraQ]

Based on your information I think you will have problems in the winter. If not now than later in a few years when you start to lose capacity. To me it does not make sense to have to use a generator on your car every day. You are STILL burning gas so might as well have a Prius or hybrid SUV that you comfortably fit in.

I have a 70 mile commute and I cannot make it if the temperature is close to freezing.

Around 40F? This is our average in the winter and the Leaf will make it with about 5-10 miles to spare. So basically as long as nothing goes wrong (no detours, extra trips, really bad traffic) it barely makes it. This is mainly due to the heater which is horribly inefficient. As someone else said the 2013 model should have a more efficient heater.

If you are set on an EV I would wait until they come out with an EV with slightly more range... or plop down the cash for a Tesla.
Now if you can find a plug at work to use this makes it a viable solution. Maybe you should ask if some arrangement can be made. Having a quick-charge on the way also works but you may get tired of having to make that stop every day in the winter.

 

[Herm]

Well I guess I will repeat myself. My main issue with the Volt is that I cannot physically fit in it. I am too tall for it. My main intention was to look for a gasoline free vehicle.

It is worth suffering a bit of discomfort to save the planet.. if you are willing, Mother Earth.

At around your commute distance of 70 miles the Volt minimizes your gasoline usage, above 70 miles a Prius would do a better job (using EPA numbers).. a third option for you is a pre-2005 Volkswagen diesel running on bio-diesel.. no gasoline usage at all but make sure you do your preventative maintenance and get to know an independent mechanic.. VW seems to engineer their cars for tall people.

 

[darandon]

Based on your information I think you will have problems in the winter. If not now than later in a few years when you start to lose capacity. To me it does not make sense to have to use a generator on your car every day. You are STILL burning gas so might as well have a Prius or hybrid SUV that you comfortably fit in.

I have a 70 mile commute and I cannot make it if the temperature is close to freezing.

Around 40F? This is our average in the winter and the Leaf will make it with about 5-10 miles to spare. So basically as long as nothing goes wrong (no detours, extra trips, really bad traffic) it barely makes it. This is mainly due to the heater which is horribly inefficient. As someone else said the 2013 model should have a more efficient heater.

If you are set on an EV I would wait until they come out with an EV with slightly more range... or plop down the cash for a Tesla.
Now if you can find a plug at work to use this makes it a viable solution. Maybe you should ask if some arrangement can be made. Having a quick-charge on the way also works but you may get tired of having to make that stop every day in the winter.

Thanks SierraQ, Your response makes sense. The generator idea was just to juice up the batteries for an hour if things are very cold otherwise I was gonna go without it. But now that I found that quick charge station at 5 miles from work it will make life much better

The only reason why I ask this question is because I take advice and trust individuals who have the vehicle and have gone through it so that I get to know their experience and not just trust the marketing ads etc.

I will wait for the 2013 model and save up some more $$ and hope Nissan lowers their prices by then.

Well I guess I will repeat myself. My main issue with the Volt is that I cannot physically fit in it. I am too tall for it. My main intention was to look for a gasoline free vehicle.

It is worth suffering a bit of discomfort to save the planet.. if you are willing, Mother Earth.

At around your commute distance of 70 miles the Volt minimizes your gasoline usage, above 70 miles a Prius would do a better job (using EPA numbers).. a third option for you is a pre-2005 Volkswagen diesel running on bio-diesel.. no gasoline usage at all but make sure you do your preventative maintenance and get to know an independent mechanic.. VW seems to engineer their cars for tall people.

If being in a little of discomfort was the case then it wont be an issue. I have to tilt my neck on the side just to fit in it with the seat all the way back and tilted down as if you were to sleep in the car. The roof of the volt has to be 1-2 inches taller at least in order for me to fit like in the leaf but I guess Chevy did it for aerodynamic purposes and I dont blame them for that. The bio-diesel I am not an expert with that but making it here will be a lot of trouble for me with the equipment and the space for it which I'm lacking of. I will just wait for Nissan to give more details on the 2013 model and hopefully lower the $$. Until then Ill drive my little gas car to work and hopefully it lasts me through (210K km on it already )

 

[Jay]

Hello everyone,

I hope this question is in the right place for you leaf owners who have more experience with the car than me

I dont own a leaf and am thinking of getting one. (Probably 2013 model) My one concern is the distance and the performance of the vehicle in winter conditions. I'm from Ontario here in Canada and sadly there arent that many charging stations around. I would use the vehicle as a main commuter vehicle to and from work. The unfortunate thing is that my daily commute will range roughly 120km = 75 miles (round trip) :? During summer, spring and fall I'm sure the leaf will be able to handle it. I will be driving it through the city streets and side country roads so the max speed will be around 80kmph = 50mph when the roads are open and bumper to bumper stop and go when in the city.

My concern is in the winter if the vehicle is going to be able to survive the distance staying out in the cold outdoors for 8hrs while i'm at work (no plugs at all near the building or charging stations ) when the temperatures hit -20 degrees Celsius = -4 F, and have to drive the returning 60km= 37.5miles back.

There are no hills nearby so the whole drive is flat. So far the only thing I was thinking was to get the little honda generator and run it over winter when its very cold when the car is parked at work for few hrs to juice the battery up a little. Do you guys think the generator can fit in the hood compartment of the leaf like many of you have managed to fit the charging brick in there for theft prevention reasons?

Or do you have any other ideas like workarounds for this type of scenario? The company is not willing to install a charging station

Sorry for making this a novel I wanted to be as descriptive as possible.

Thanks for your input ahead of time.

Just a quick note. I've got 50K and 2 winters under my belt in Toronto. Don't attempt this, and don't save up to buy a 2013 thinking it will help you. In a non-CWP, I could maybe eek out 100 km. With the CWP, annoying other drivers (always at 75km or less) and white knuckling the last 10 km (ignoring the warning lights) I can just touch 120.

Feasibly, you 'could' achieve your range if you were willing to punish yourself everyday (why would you?), but still, only for one season. Canadian LEAFs will last longer than US ones (lithium is ok with cold, hates heat), I lost about 5% after 20K, but that 5% is more than you have to spare for year two.

Same goes for waiting for a 2013. It won't help you at all. When your white-knuckling a CWP 2012 LEAF, you are using the heat controls almost not at all, so it doesn't matter the efficiency of the new heater.

You need a plug where you work, otherwise you should just shelve your LEAF from Christmas to March break.

If you want to 'shoot the breeze' about LEAFs in Canada, feel free to send me an email - [email protected]
Jay