Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[JeremyW]

At this point, I wonder how much it's going to cost out of pocket to replace all of the modules. If Nissan thinks two years is acceptable for a battery in Phoenix with no TMS, they better be making replacements dirt cheap out of TN. :roll:

Oh and could you keep the old modules? Even a 10 kWh usable capacity pack would be valuable in an off-grid or peak shaving PV system.

Jeremy

 

[TonyWilliams]

Lost my first capacity bar Friday.... No discernable loss of range to date.... I arrived with 7 miles of range left. This weekend's trip I arrived with 6 miles of range left.

I think you're confusing the GuessOmeter with real range. You've lost 15% of you battery's capacity, and therefore 15% of it range.

Check out the range charts on the link in my signature line.... there is a 100% battery chart, and an 85% chart to correspond with losing one capacity bar.

NONE OF THAT DATA HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE GOM OR CARWINGS.

 

[GRA]

At this point, I wonder how much it's going to cost out of pocket to replace all of the modules. If Nissan thinks two years is acceptable for a battery in Phoenix with no TMS, they better be making replacements dirt cheap out of TN. :roll:

Oh and could you keep the old modules? Even a 10 kWh usable capacity pack would be valuable in an off-grid or peak shaving PV system.
Jeremy

If you own the car I don't see why not, barring environmental regs requiring recycling. However, the battery will have salvage trade-in value towards your new pack, so I'd think most people would opt to turn it in.

 

[LEAFfan]

problem is that parts of AZ never gets to the temp (about 70) you need to be to get full capacity.

I guess you didn't do your research Dave. The fact is, there aren't any places in AZ that don'tget down to 70F. Our winters get down to freezing and below at times and 60's to 70's during the day. Using absolutes is usually going to cause an error. Maybe you meant to say "in the late summer months" there are parts of AZ that rarely reach 70F. Because even in the early summer, we do sometimes get down to 70 at night and or by morning.

 

[JeremyW]

However, the battery will have salvage trade-in value towards your new pack, so I'd think most people would opt to turn it in.

Right, I'd just love to see a number though. One of the Phoenix owners should get a quote.

Jeremy

 

[DaveEV]

Lost my first capacity bar Friday.... No discernable loss of range to date.... I arrived with 7 miles of range left. This weekend's trip I arrived with 6 miles of range left.

I think you're confusing the GuessOmeter with real range. You've lost 15% of you battery's capacity, and therefore 15% of it range.

The capacity bars are not to be trusted. They appear to not be any more reliable than the GOM. After all, TickTock has lost 2 bars (20%+ capacity loss in theory), yet wall-to-wheels tests result in only 15% capacity loss.

Roughneck here is saying that any capacity loss he has must be less than 15% which the loss of one capacity bar indicates. Sounds completely plausible to me. Would need to be backed up with data from the wall, though.

It's pretty clear though that the capacity bars may overestimate capacity loss.

 

[LEAFfan]

It's pretty clear though that the capacity bars may overestimate capacity loss.

I've come to the conclusion after testing many cars with my BCM, that the first capacity bar loss is more like 20%, not 15% as the service manual once purported. Think about it, if you start with a new battery which reads 100% on the meter, and then the meter reads 80% after a one bar loss, that's a 20% loss. I used to think that the top capacity bar was only 15%, but now I know it is an underestimate. Bar loss two and three seem to be more accurate with the meter, 6.25% loss each.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Lost my first capacity bar Friday.... No discernable loss of range to date.... I arrived with 7 miles of range left. This weekend's trip I arrived with 6 miles of range left.

I think you're confusing the GuessOmeter with real range. You've lost 15% of you battery's capacity, and therefore 15% of it range.

The capacity bars are not to be trusted. They appear to not be any more reliable than the GOM. After all, TickTock has lost 2 bars (20%+ capacity loss in theory), yet wall-to-wheels tests result in only 15% capacity loss.

Roughneck here is saying that any capacity loss he has must be less than 15% which the loss of one capacity bar indicates. Sounds completely plausible to me. Would need to be backed up with data from the wall, though.

It's pretty clear though that the capacity bars may overestimate capacity loss.

exactly. after all the TBs have a resolution of as much as 10-20 º or whatever the current consensus is so i find it hard to believe the capacity bars have that accurate.

and LF, i am referring to a few things. yes i am talking summer (which lasts nearly all year anyway) time and the fact that it appears the car must be cool several days before it changes its charging habits so the occasional overnight low's you get in the 70's wont change a thing

and i should say Phoenix but AZ is easier. i lived just outside Tuscan and one thing i did remember is it was usually a good 10-15º cooler than Phoenix.

 

[Stoaty]

Roughneck here is saying that any capacity loss he has must be less than 15% which the loss of one capacity bar indicates. Sounds completely plausible to me. Would need to be backed up with data from the wall, though.

It's pretty clear though that the capacity bars may overestimate capacity loss.

I think there is some evidence for that based on Nissan's testing of 7 of the most affected Arizona Leafs. One Leaf with a 3 bar loss and another with a 2 bar loss tested as having an actual capacity loss of 15%:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Nissan.27s_Responses_and_Actions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That suggests that the capacity bars may be overestimating the loss, but the loss is still pretty significant since the best of the tested Leafs still had a 14% capacity loss.

 

[davekern]

In San Diego with just over 20k mileage and 15 months old. I lost my first capacity bar this weekend. I took it into the dealer a couple of months ago because I thought the range had dropped and was told all was good. Looks like that might not have been the case . I have heard of people in Arizona having problems. Anyone else in San Diego or like climates lose a bar also?

Bummer, was hoping the batteries would last longer than this. I am already down to about 65 - 70 miles of average city vs. highway driving. That is going about the speed limit with no A/C. With A/C and going with traffic is about a 55 mile range.

 

[Stoaty]

In San Diego with just over 20k mileage and 15 months old. I lost my first capacity bar this weekend. I took it into the dealer a couple of months ago because I thought the range had dropped and was told all was good. Looks like that might not have been the case . I have heard of people in Arizona having problems. Anyone else in San Diego or like climates lose a bar also?

Sorry to hear about your capacity bar loss. Your case added to the Wiki:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Losses" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please report the case to Nissan (directions on Wiki) and let us know the case number, date of report, and also the date of manufacture. Thanks.

Also, how often do you charge to 80%/100%?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

In San Diego with just over 20k mileage and 15 months old. I lost my first capacity bar this weekend. I took it into the dealer a couple of months ago because I thought the range had dropped and was told all was good. Looks like that might not have been the case . I have heard of people in Arizona having problems. Anyone else in San Diego or like climates lose a bar also?

Bummer, was hoping the batteries would last longer than this. I am already down to about 65 - 70 miles of average city vs. highway driving. That is going about the speed limit with no A/C. With A/C and going with traffic is about a 55 mile range.

ah another Dave!! sorry to hear about your loss. how often if ever have you seen 7 TBs. do you frequently park out in the open? see temps over 80º? do any significant amount of day time charging?

 

[gaswalla]

In San Diego with just over 20k mileage and 15 months old. I lost my first capacity bar this weekend. I took it into the dealer a couple of months ago because I thought the range had dropped and was told all was good. Looks like that might not have been the case . I have heard of people in Arizona having problems. Anyone else in San Diego or like climates lose a bar also?

Bummer, was hoping the batteries would last longer than this. I am already down to about 65 - 70 miles of average city vs. highway driving. That is going about the speed limit with no A/C. With A/C and going with traffic is about a 55 mile range.

So sorry to hear this. A car in Oceanside lost a bar too. Once this problem comes to the San Diego cars, it will really start affecting cars everywhere - the temperate climate in SD ought to be closest to ideal - depending, of course, on charging habits, and temperature where the car resides.

 

[TomT]

I'm beginning to think that it is as much a function of time and mileage as it is temperature... My car, which lost it's first capacity tick about a month ago, has never seen 7 temperature bars and has spend most of it's weekday life at work parked in Santa Monica where it is typically in the 70s... And it has been charged to only 80 percent about 95 percent of the time with only two QCs. The product of these three components (time, mileage and temperature) is what is really killing the Phoenix and Texas cars, but it shows me that most all will ultimately have capacity loss beyond what was originally projected and expected by both us and Nissan.

 

[Herm]

Right, I'd just love to see a number though. One of the Phoenix owners should get a quote.

Surprised no one has requested a quote for a full battery replacement.. Is Nissan obligated to give you a quote?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

time and mileage should be a factor but doubtful that anyone has THAT much mileage. roughly estimating here. you need to have 18+ months AND 30,000+ miles PLUS temperature induced losses to lose a bar in temperate climates.

for other cooler climates. we do have one Washingtonian who thinks he is close to 10-12% loss so his first bar is ready to go, but he has 50,000 miles on his which is double the mileage you guys are reporting

 

[TomT]

Well, my car has spent most of it's life in what would be considered moderate temperatures and use, and it lost it's first bar at 20,500 miles and 17 months... I think the bottom line is that we are seeing that the battery chemistry is not what Nissan believed it to be in terms of durability...

time and mileage should be a factor but doubtful that anyone has THAT much mileage. roughly estimating here. you need to have 18+ months AND 30,000+ miles PLUS temperature induced losses to lose a bar in temperate climates.

 

[surfingslovak]

Well, my car has spent most of it's life in what would be considered moderate temperatures and use, and it lost it's first bar at 20,500 miles and 17 months... I think the bottom line is that we are seeing that the battery chemistry is not what Nissan believed it to be in terms of durability...

Tom, I suspect that you are right, and battery capacity loss is something that will affect most owners, even in temperate climates. Please have a look at the an old thread, where we discussed how temperature distribution in different locales and some basic chemistry (Arrhenius law) can be used to roughly predict the relative speed of aging for passively cooled batteries. The underlying numbers are very rough, and the results are to be taken with a grain of salt. However, if the basic premise holds, this seems to indicate that given your usage pattern, you would have lost the first capacity bar in about 11 months if you lived in Phoenix.

 

[Valdemar]

I'm beginning to think that it is as much a function of time and mileage as it is temperature... My car, which lost it's first capacity tick about a month ago, has never seen 7 temperature bars and has spend most of it's weekday life at work parked in Santa Monica where it is typically in the 70s... And it has been charged to only 80 percent about 95 percent of the time with only two QCs. The product of these three components (time, mileage and temperature) is what is really killing the Phoenix and Texas cars, but it shows me that most all will ultimately have capacity loss beyond what was originally projected and expected by both us and Nissan.

Does the reported capacity loss matches actual range loss? Sounds like I live in the same area as you and drive similar distances. I work in Burbank where it is warmer than in Santa Monica, but fortunately we have a fairly cool parking structure there. My charging habits are similar to yours. It will be 12 months of ownership in a couple of weeks and 17k miles, still have all bars, while I started getting 9 bars to 80% fairly often now range-wise I don't really see any significant differences. I usually charge to 80% and have about 22m left on GOM when I come home from work, as far as I remember that's how it's always been. Saw 7 temp. bars once during recent heat wave. Will be interesting to see if I lose the first bar by 2013 which is what I'd expect based on your example.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Well, my car has spent most of it's life in what would be considered moderate temperatures and use, and it lost it's first bar at 20,500 miles and 17 months... I think the bottom line is that we are seeing that the battery chemistry is not what Nissan believed it to be in terms of durability...

Tom, I suspect that you are right, and battery capacity loss is something that will affect most owners, even in temperate climates. Please have a look at the an old thread, where we discussed how temperature distribution in different locales and some basic chemistry (Arrhenius law) can be used to roughly predict the relative speed of aging for passively cooled batteries. The underlying numbers are very rough, and the results are to be taken with a grain of salt. However, if the basic premise holds, this seems to indicate that given your usage pattern, you would have lost the first capacity bar in about 11 months if you lived in Phoenix.

the value of this chart as a guideline is increasing daily. i understand getting the cities listed was a lot of work but i think this is something we need to take on.

i cant say i am the data pro, but i am willing to share the work if need be. there are other places with significant EV ownership that is not represented like Portland. although in the Pacific Northwest, their weather is much warmer in the Summer. also, Seattle is unique for the area due to its being bounded by water up to 75% for most of the city.

Oly which is just 60 miles south we only have water on 40-50% of us depending on location and just 5 miles from the Sound can really make a change in the weather.

now, i am not suggesting we get every city over 50,000 in population but at least lets get a few more in the highly concentrated EV areas