Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[TonyWilliams]

The problem is they may not have the luxury of time.... For Nissan's sake and the sake of the new EV market, I hope they are closer to a resolution than it seems.

Any big corporation would need all the "appropriate" folks to sign off on any fix, but then, we are assuming that there is a fix. Can you just throw in another one of the same battery? Sure, and it will do the same thing in AZ. That's why I don't think they'll do that. They can't retrofit any TMS for anything close to a reasonable price (remember, there were remarks made by Nissan that one of the reasons that they didn't put in a TMS was it would require a hump inside the car (like Volt). That hump doesn't exist, therefore there's not anyplace to put the equipment even if they wanted to spend $$$$$$$ for retrofits.

1. They knew the very real potential for these problems long before the car was manufactured, and even today, they continue to sell the car in Phoenix without any notice to the buyers. Just business as usual.

2. They are not going to retrofit future advanced batteries or add on TMS. Just far too expensive and physically not possible.

3. The GM concept of turning in the Volt for another car seems like something the Nissan legal guys would sign off on... or at least they did at GM.

4. Or, automatic exchange for a future LEAF (although, I seriously doubt these 2013 cars will be any different, battery wise, than the current car... contrary to the press releases)

5. Or, go the "corporate speak" angle; deny any real problem, degradation is normal, our batteries were tested, we tested some owner cars in AZ and found them to be exposed to excess heat contrary to Nissan's owner's manual, or they were DC charged too much, we'll put out a (cheap) software upgrade to "fix" any perceived problems, blah, blah, blah. I honestly think this will ultimately kill the car.

Honestly, what CAN they do? Not what would make YOU feel warm and fuzzy, 'cuz that isn't likely to happen.

 

[Stoaty]

Another one bites the dust:

http://livingleaf.info/2012/08/nissan-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-fourth-in-a-series/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suspect that the Wiki battery capacity reports are just the tip of the "iceberg". :twisted:

 

[JRP3]

They can't retrofit any TMS for anything close to a reasonable price (remember, there was remarks made by Nissan that one of the reasons that they didn't put in a TMS was it would require a hump inside the car (like Volt). That hump doesn't exist, therefore there's not anyplace to put the equipment even if they wanted to spend $$$$$$$ for retrofits.

Higher energy density cells, which do exist, could be installed and still allow room for a TMS. It is not technically impossible, though it may not be a cost effective retrofit. Or there is other lithium chemistry that are possibly not as susceptible to heat issues. SCIB and A123 are possibilities.

 

[LEAFguy]

Another one bites the dust:

http://livingleaf.info/2012/08/nissan-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-fourth-in-a-series/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suspect that the Wiki battery capacity reports are just the tip of the "iceberg". :twisted:

Stoaty,

I'll say the same thing here that I said to John - if he could get two trips from a 100% charge, which his comment stated that he was doing, my recommendation would be to charge to 80% every night and use less of the battery capacity daily to accomplish his driving needs. Regarding the statement of John's where he says he's sure they knew - I will disagree with that, because most individual dealerships have absolutely no idea that this is happening. Certainly, by now Nissan North America is aware. Whether they have communicated this to the dealership level is unknown. My guess it that it is unlikely that they have. Is that a good move on Nissan's part? No. But that doesn't change the situation.

Regarding your tip of the iceberg statement - I don't know that I agree. It is known that batteries lose capacity over time. The question that it will come down to in the end is what is reasonable. LEAFs on this forum have been reported with 40,000 miles plus with loss of no bars, or just one lost bar with 40,000 miles. But it seems many in this thread are willing to overlook those instances.

I'm not saying that Nissan has no responsibility here. What is yet to be determined is what Nissan's response is, and should be.

 

[TonyWilliams]

LEAFs on this forum have been reported with 40,000 miles plus with loss of no bars, or just one lost bar with 40,000 miles. But it seems many in this thread are willing to overlook those instances.

I disagree that those are overlooked. We do know about those instances, and the operating environment that makes that possible. Which merely highlights what is obvious to most; the batteries can't take the heat.

So, if you can operate them at 70F or less every day, and preferably only use 20%-80% of the battery capacity, you're doing EXACTLY what a proper battery temperature management system would do.

But every LEAF battery was built with these inherent flaws that cause fast degradation designed in, even the ones with 40,000 - 50,000 miles (and there aren't many of those), and that flaw is that if I take that car to a hot area, the end result is likely the same as any other LEAF exposed to heat. The battery will lose capacity. Quickly.

But, Nissan will sell you that car in Phoenix, TODAY, without mentioning a word about heat on the battery. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[jspearman]

I don't see how Nissan will be able to avoid a full recall at this point. Carwings is likely telling them how the batteries look worldwide and I'm guessing it's not a pretty picture. Most people are probably not following a strict battery-saving regimen, and while Nissan may legally be in the clear, the court of public opinion will be brutal.

 

[Stoaty]

Regarding your tip of the iceberg statement - I don't know that I agree. It is known that batteries lose capacity over time. The question that it will come down to in the end is what is reasonable. LEAFs on this forum have been reported with 40,000 miles plus with loss of no bars, or just one lost bar with 40,000 miles. But it seems many in this thread are willing to overlook those instances.

Tip of the iceberg means that there are many cases unreported here on the Wiki. We keep running into them all the time when we go looking other places like Facebook or your Leaf blog. How many more are there that aren't published anywhere? I am sure Nissan knows exactly how many Leafs have lost how much capacity over one year, and where they are located. It has gone from "5 or 6 cases" to 76 cases now reported to the Wiki. Remember that Azdre/opossum (in Phoenix, AZ) report that 80-90% of the people they happen to know with Leafs have lost at least one capacity bar--and that is not a pre-selected sample, they knew these people before the Leaf started losing capacity. Nissan is the only one with the actual numbers, and they aren't sayin'. We know the lower bound (10% of Arizona Leafs) but not the upper limit.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

TaylorSF will roll 50,000 today and has noticeable loss of range but only because he pushes his car to 85% of its "Summer" range twice a day but has not lost a bar but is estimating about a 10% loss. i only hope my car only has 10% loss when i roll 50,000 miles...oh wait. my lease only gives me 45,000... hmmm

 

[Stoaty]

Another one bites the dust:

Missed this one since it is in another thread, now added to Wiki:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7569&start=58" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Had my one year checku-up. Ended up going to ABC Nissan in Phoenix AZ since Larry Miller quoted a price of $169 to also include having the tires rotated, air filter and brake fluid replaced. Followed the post recommendations and skipped the brake fluid and interior air filter this first year. Had my tires rotated for free at Discount Tire and the battery check was free.

I too have lost one bar of charge even though all my driving and charging habits showed up as 'very good' on their battery check printout. AZ summer heat? The ABC Nissan service guy initially said, "it's a battery, of course it's going to lose some capacity in the heat and you'll never get that back" (I am a female if that matters) Then I showed him the article about AZ Leaf owners losing more than expected battery capacity after one year and that Nissan wants to be notified (can't recall the name of the Nissan Rep) since I gave him the paper to keep. He said he would notify the Rep so they'd have the info on file.

I really hope it will stop with one bar loss and if not, Nissan will take care of us early adopters. I am getting 84 miles/charge with my driving habits- mostly surface streets, avg speed was 17.9mph.

Still, I love my Leaf!

 

[grommet]

I don't see how Nissan will be able to avoid a full recall at this point. Carwings is likely telling them how the batteries look worldwide and I'm guessing it's not a pretty picture.

Your car's telematics, regrettably, doesn't report this level of detail to Nissan. The yearly check-up, however, does.

 

[RegGuheert]

I don't see how Nissan will be able to avoid a full recall at this point.

I guess I don't see that happening since many (most?) LEAFs are likely to meet the expectations set forth by Nissan. For those that fall way short, I would expect to see some sort of warranty put in place.

The issue will be for those cars that fall short, but not way short. I expect Nissan to stick with their party line of "It's normal," for owners of those cars.

 

[LEAFguy]

But, Nissan will sell you that car in Phoenix, TODAY, without mentioning a word about heat on the battery. What are your thoughts on that?

I think that Nissan should have put a stop sale on LEAFs in Phoenix - probably in all of AZ. Will they? Not likely.

 

[SierraQ]

Called and got a case number, they seem to know the drill! Nissan CS was very concerned about the GOM range (who cares!) and also if I lose another bar. They tried to be sincere about it, but they're just middle-men sitting between us and those who know whats up/what they intend to do about it!

I wonder if those CS reps have actually driven a Leaf for a long period of time (e.g. for a few days or more), running down to LBW or lower to realize how bad the GOM is and whether they know about the gid meters here...

The GOM is exactly accurate.

...provided that you drive 41 MPH and don't brake, turn, speed up, slow down, change lanes, go up any hills, go down any hills, or anything abnormal like that.

 

[SierraQ]

I don't see how Nissan will be able to avoid a full recall at this point. Carwings is likely telling them how the batteries look worldwide and I'm guessing it's not a pretty picture. Most people are probably not following a strict battery-saving regimen, and while Nissan may legally be in the clear, the court of public opinion will be brutal.

Not a full recall. After all temperate climate Leafs are for the most part performing as expected. They would only need to recall Leafs in the southern states and perhaps places like L.A. So it may not be as big a hit as one might think especially this early in the game. I mean there are not millions of Leafs out there like more established models.

 

[Herm]

Higher energy density cells, which do exist, could be installed and still allow room for a TMS. It is not technically impossible, though it may not be a cost effective retrofit. Or there is other lithium chemistry that are possibly not as susceptible to heat issues. SCIB and A123 are possibilities.

I also dont think its prohibitively expensive to retrofit an active cooling system.. it could be done without opening up the battery pack but its likely you will need to drop it to install the insulation.

The battery modules are in thermal contact with each other and with the bottom of the battery case, not the sides or the top. Attach 4 AC condensor plates to each corner of the bottom of the case, add a diverting/metering freon valve and hook it up to the AC circuit. It will not be as sophisticated as the system used in the Volt but it will cool all the cells, you may need to do a bit more balancing since all the modules will not have an equal temperature but at least it will be low. Yes your range will be reduced so the upgrade should be made optional. Once the cells reach 60% SOC it will stop any attempt to cool.

 

[surfingslovak]

After all temperate climate Leafs are for the most part performing as expected.

If things progress at the current pace, Leafs in temperate climates will likely see annualized battery degradation figures significantly beyond what was originally projected by the manufacturer. We should know by next summer, unless Nissan took some steps to remedy the situation.

 

[Stoaty]

If things progress at the current pace, Leafs in temperate climates will likely see annualized battery degradation figures significantly beyond what was originally projected by the manufacturer. We should know by next summer, unless Nissan took some steps to remedy the situation.

That is exactly what concerns me, and the reason I no longer drive my Leaf to work if the predicted high is greater than 95 degrees (arbitrary cutoff I selected). If Nissan was this far off in their predicted rate of battery capacity loss for super hot areas, how can I trust that their prediction is accurate for mostly temperate, but sometimes quite hot ambient temperatures? That's the reason this is such a big deal for those outside the "furnace" areas.

 

[edatoakrun]

My best effort at testing the range of my LEAF over time has show some surprising results.

I tried to replicate as accurately as possible, my earliest range test,of almost a year, and almost 10,000 miles ago, to test this hypothesis. I chose a day with very close to the original temperature condition, and drove the exact same route over the first 87 miles of the trip, using the same mode (eco) and used my original trip logs to closely replicate the same elapsed times for each of the three (same distance) legs of the trip....

The results from 8/30/12 were:

97.3 miles to VLB, 98.9 miles in total, by the odometer...

Compare this test with my first test on 9/7/11:

91.5 miles to VLB, 93.4 in total, by the odometer...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&p=224316#p224316" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[JeremyW]

If things progress at the current pace, Leafs in temperate climates will likely see annualized battery degradation figures significantly beyond what was originally projected by the manufacturer. We should know by next summer, unless Nissan took some steps to remedy the situation.

That is exactly what concerns me, and the reason I no longer drive my Leaf to work if the predicted high is greater than 95 degrees (arbitrary cutoff I selected). If Nissan was this far off in their predicted rate of battery capacity loss for super hot areas, how can I trust that their prediction is accurate for mostly temperate, but sometimes quite hot ambient temperatures? That's the reason this is such a big deal for those outside the "furnace" areas.

It's gotten so bad that I'm seriously considering getting a used portable air conditioner off craigslist. :shock:

I won't spend the kWh to keep my apartment nice and cool, but I think I will for the battery. These insulated garages keep the heat all night long.

Jeremy

 

[RegGuheert]

My best effort at testing the range of my LEAF over time has show some surprising results.

Thanks, Ed! Those are surprising results! I like them!

Thanks for that ray of hope in this long, dreary thread!