Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[dreamer]

Sad to be a new member of the 1 bar lost club - at only 3900 miles and 4.4 months. Battery was checked at dealer -"normal" - and capacity gauge reset to 12 bars.

Dreamer, if you would, please provide us with the following information so we can include it in the Wiki....

Date Of Loss
Mfg Date
Date Reported To Nissan
Case Number

Thanks!

Lost bar on 9/16 - just under 5 months of use
Manufactured in 2/12
Reported to Nissan on 9/17
Case number 9467131

The dealer did not inform us of reset but on receipt/paperwork it stated "reset all the values".
We charge to 80% nightly - very rarely to 100%. Very rarely do we charge more than once a day.
I can't be sure, but it feels like we've lost about 10-15% - both before and after the reset.
We lease - not sure how to proceed.

 

[JeremyW]

Manufactured in 2/12

Uh oh. That's the same month mine was built. :?

 

[NOC8H18]

Sad to be a new member of the 1 bar lost club - at only 3900 miles and 4.4 months. Battery was checked at dealer -"normal" - and capacity gauge reset to 12 bars.

Dreamer, if you would, please provide us with the following information so we can include it in the Wiki....

Date Of Loss
Mfg Date
Date Reported To Nissan
Case Number

Thanks!

Lost bar on 9/16 - just under 5 months of use
Manufactured in 2/12
Reported to Nissan on 9/17
Case number 9467131

The dealer did not inform us of reset but on receipt/paperwork it stated "reset all the values".
We charge to 80% nightly - very rarely to 100%. Very rarely do we charge more than once a day.
I can't be sure, but it feels like we've lost about 10-15% - both before and after the reset.
We lease - not sure how to proceed.

Nissan allowed another lease owner to get out of their lease and refunded the $700.00 early termination fee.

http://gas2.org/2012/09/28/is-nissan-now-buying-back-range-losing-leafs-under-arizona-lemon-law/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[planet4ever]

What does 'full price' include? If one purchased their Leaf, how is having claimed the $7500 federal tax credit being handled? Are purchasers returning that tax credit?

For purchasers, the tax credit doesn't affect price of the car at all. If you bought the car in any tax year you can claim the credit for that year's taxes. What you do with the car after that is your business. The IRS doesn't care unless, perhaps, they suspect you bought it specifically for resale. If you have been driving it long enough to lose a capacity bar, that's one thing you don't need to worry about.

Now, if you were trying to break a lease, that could be a different matter. NMAC gave you a $7500 instant rebate, and they might want part of that back. It doesn't seem too logical, though, since giving them the car back doesn't affect the tax credit they got from the government.

Ray

 

[surfingslovak]

Saw this in a CNBC article published the other day. As far as I recall, this might be the first public reference to the battery state of health measured by Nissan, presumably in Casa Grande.

The affected Leaf owners were averaging 16,500 miles annually, Reuter said. The car's owner's manual says that under normal conditions and with average annual mileage of 12,500, the energy storage capacity of a Leaf will drop to 80 percent in five years, Reuter said.

The customers in Arizona became concerned when their Leaf models, with an average age of about 15 months, were down to 84 percent or 85 percent already, he said.

A battery's capacity shrinks relatively quickly in the early stages of use and then tapers off, Reuter said. By the time a Leaf battery is 10 years old, it will have about 70 percent of its initial capacity, he said.

Click to open

 

[edatoakrun]

TickTock,

I have seen many references on multiple threads that seem to be referencing your statement:

...I drive almost 2X that which explains why I am sitting well below the Phoenix predicted curve at [email protected]....

As evidence that the "real" Phoenix/ hot climate capacity loss in the future cannot be expected to match that on the graph from Nissan you reconstructed (at the link below your comment I pasted below).

It seems to me (unless Nissan stated otherwise) that a significant factor explaining your car currently being "under the curve" is the seasonality of your ~16 month period of use.

If temperature exposure is the cause of "capacity loss", whether due entirely to battery degradation or with BMS operation as a contributing factor, then you would of course expect the curve for any individual LEAF not to be a straight line, such as shown on the graph, but showing the seasonal effects of high temperature exposure, fluctuating markedly above and below the curve, which begins at-date of delivery?

So it appears to me that the curve Nissan presented to you, most likely was that produced by the composite of all actual LEAF deliveries to those markets, over all months of the year, and at all seasonal ambient temperatures.

Your car, however, with a May 31 2011 delivery date, has experienced nearly two years worth of high heat exposure over just 16 months.

And your LEAFs individual capacity loss curve, looking like something between the straight line and annual descending stairs, might be expected to show it's maximum deviation below the straight-line average in the Chart, right about now, would it not?

Unless I'm Missing something, eight months from now, if your LEAF does experience a much lower rate of capacity loss during the lower ambient temperatures, your LEAF might actually be much closer to (though not above, unless BMS effects come into play) the generic curve, even with your relatively high miles driven.

Here's my receation of the graph I think is most pertinent to all owners/buyers to decide individual course of action. The actual dots are numbers I wrote down, I filled in the gaps from memory based on the shape. Indeed there is a precipitous drop in capacity in the first 6 months and then the degradation slows and continues to slow over time. The key thing to notice is the 80%@5years we've all been using to base our decisions is actually only the median value and not what a Phoenician can use as an "expected value" These curves are based on average mileage per area: 7500 for Phoenix (I don't recall what the Boston number was except that it was higher then Phoenix). I drive almost 2X that which explains why I am sitting well below the Phoenix predicted curve at [email protected]. This data is not LA4, but rather a 32.2A discharge rate to better match 55mph discharge rate.
The axis on the right was not on the graph I was presented. I added that based on the 84.7%SOH Nissan measured and the 74 mile range Tony measured shortly after so I can get a realistic idea how much range I will have at year 5. As you can see it will be well below the 65miles per day I require. If you stick within the 7500 miles per year (~30 miles/day), you should get 65 miles after 5 years and still be quite happy since you only need 30.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=230575#p230575" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PS 8:30 AM:

I consider the fact that my LEAF has also gone through two not-as-hot-as-Phoenix North Valley/foothill Summers (last near-100 F degree day of the year is expected tomorrow) with so little range/capacity loss, very good news.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[lorax]

Where did Nissan get its 7,500 mile number?

Based on the following US DOT website, the average American drives over 13.5k miles a year.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm

My statistical group drives 18,858 miles a year. I drove 22k the first year. Statistically, I am probably within 3 sigma of the center of the distribution.

Harsha

 

[TomT]

My groups drives 15,859 miles a year according to the chart and I am actually just slightly under that in the Leaf (14,526). Add in my ICE driving and I am right there.

Where did Nissan get its 7,500 mile number?

 

[edatoakrun]

Where did Nissan get its 7,500 mile number?

Based on the following US DOT website, the average American drives over 13.5k miles a year.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm

My statistical group drives 18,858 miles a year. I drove 22k the first year. Statistically, I am probably within 3 sigma of the center of the distribution.

Harsha

I don't know how Nissan arrived at 7,500 Miles, if they did, but I do think Nissan was probably anticipating that not many drivers who needed close to 22,000 miles per year from a single car would think that a BEV with ~70 to 80 mile maximum initial range, and an expected loss of range over time, and number of charge cycles, with the additional variables of temperature exposure and percentage of battery capacity use, would meet their needs.

Care to explain how your required driving and charging habits, made it look like a a good idea for you to buy/ or lease a LEAF, in the first place?

 

[spooka]

I don't know how Nissan arrived at 7,500 Miles, if they did, but I do think Nissan was probably anticipating that not many drivers who needed close to 22,000 miles per year from a single car would think that a BEV with ~70 to 80 mile maximum initial range, and an expected loss of range over time, and number of charge cycles, with the additional variables of temperature exposure and percentage of battery capacity use, would meet their needs.

If Nissan designed this car for EV enthusiasts only, the above points would be relevant. However, Nissan designed the LEAF for the masses. The masses are expected to drive, plug, repeat. Anything more complicated than that equates to an automatic failure for this EV. Nissan spent a lot of money advertising that this car and technology were ready for the mass market. If there were mileage limitations, why wouldn't Nissan disclose that to the buyer/leaser? Are you stating that Nissan mislead the masses? Are you stating that the average buyer should understand anything beyond Nissan stating they would have 80% capacity at 5 years? That's what I was counting on and I won't get it when I have 13,000 non-highway miles and only 10 incapacity bars left.

no condition is permanent

Isn't the condition of "change" permanent? Just wondering...

 

[surfingslovak]

Found this in an article comment earlier today. The owner lives in Tucson, AZ. She claims significant loss of range, but it's unclear whether the car lost any capacity bars.

I lost capacity on a full charge from 102 miles to 83 in one year. I have 5,000 miles of driving over that time absolutely none of which has been on freeways or over long distances. I never set my air conditioning to less than 75 degrees. The fastest I drive on the city streets I use is 50 miles per hour. My longest days include about 30 miles of driving but nevertheless my remaining miles does fall below 30 on some days and that makes me anxious. I do not enjoy the Leaf for pleasure driving because even going to the Desert Museum from my house, which is 46 miles with a small altitude climb puts my remaining range virtually into the teens. This makes me feel unsafe as a woman driver. My dealership told my my battery is fine when I complained and gave me a report that my battery was 100% on all measures. The mechanic told me that Nissan reprogrammed for more accurate prediction and that is why I lost capacity even with a "perfect battery." I checked out the no cooling system issue with him and I got the company line that it is not a problem. My friend leased because she feared there would be problems with new technology. I bought the car outright. My Nissan Maxima was in perfect shape after 17 years when I gave it up for the Leaf. I am fearing that my purchase decision was wrong. I would not have bought a Leaf if I had realized that its range would be as small and battery capacity loss so rapid. Yes, the paperwork says battery capacity will decrease. It doesn't say that will occur in less than a year of ownership. I wonder what Nissan will do given that my range on a full charge already falls at 80% of original when new? Will I have to wait until their battery tests show it is less than 80% and how small will my range be by then? I am not a person who gets a new car very often.Will I have a fight on my hands for a replacement battery If I want to maintain 80 miles of range on a full charge compared to the 102 I got just 12 months ago upon purchase? I live in Tucson. We are on average 5 degrees cooler than Phoenix. I park outside only 4 days per week for an average of 7 hours on those days. I do not notice that the range is different compared to days when I do errands and come back to the garage after a few hours. The Carwings is the other serious weak design feature. Otherwise it is a wonderful car. I hope the problem can be identified, fixed, and the original owners have their batteries upgraded. That's all I would want. I really love the car.

Click to open

 

[GRA]

EV technology is still very new.

False premise.
EV technology has been around since the 1890s. The only thing that has changed is a natural evolution from lead-acid to NiMH and Li-Ion batteries. But otherwise the 2010s EVs use the same principles as the 1920s EV which Jay Leno drives.

Actually a 1909 Baker.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/automobiles/05BAKER.html?pagewanted=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He took David Pogue out for a drive in an episode of Nova ("Making Stuff: Cleaner") that was just re-broadcast on the 26th, and I noticed when Jay showed him the batteries that (as the article says) they were golf cart batteries. They looked like the Trojan 6V 220Ah T-105s I used to sell for off-grid AE. Edit: Googling, I see that Trojan is now rating them at 225Ah.

 

[gaswalla]

Add me to the list

Date Of Loss 9/25/2012
Mfg Date 4/2011
Date Reported To Nissan 10/1/12
Case Number tba
VIN 5035
Parked outside, never garaged
Never "topped off"
Never went to turtle
Been to VLBW approx 8 times in past 15 months.
Never QC'd (but really wanted to - now I don't have enough range to make it to the QC charger in Diamond Bar, Cypress, or the new one at Fullerton)


Live on the coast in San Diego - car probably has seen temps over 90 degrees 10 times over the past 15 months. Charge to 80% approximately 80% of the time - when charge to 100%, vehicle is driven within minutes. Parked outside and charged - very cool with coastal fog most nights with L2 - usually 50-60 degrees every night even if it was "hot" (85 degrees) during the day. For the first 12 months, had 5 temp bars almost all the time- rarely saw a 6th temp bar. Over past 3 months - saw 5 temp bars twice in the morning after the cool night, but it lasted for about 15 miles of driving, and the 6th bar would appear. Never QC'd - only because there are no QC stations in San Diego (where are they? there were supposed to be a bunch of them by now). When at work, charged with L1 to get up to 80%. A few months ago, started to notice that once in awhile I would have only 9 bars with an 80% charge, and then after a month, it was always 9 bars.

I bought the car to save on gas and ended up loving the electric drive. It's a great car, but the battery is not what I thought I was buying - I went to a couple of the "LEAF tours" before the release, where they touted a 100 mile range, that the car fit the "needs for most Americans because they drive on average 60 miles a day," and that there would be dedicated support from Nissan to handle EV issues (I didn't know it would just be a phone number). I have a 25 mile commute each way and have kids that need to be shuffled around town - by charging at work, I was able to use the car as the primary car for the family. When new, the car went about 80 miles with normal driving on a full charge, and easily 100 miles with slow driving and the a/c off. Then the winter came, and I attributed the range of 65-70 to the heater and ambient temps. Then Spring came, and I was getting only 45-50 miles on an 80% charge/60 miles on a 100%.. wasn't working well for me, but I was sure that the battery problems would only occurr in Phoenix or to people who "abused" their batteries - I was sure my battery was doing fine... it's me, not the car - I'm probably driving faster than I used to. Meanwhile, I got my delivery date for my Model S (November!), and decided that it was time to let the LEAF go... then, I lost a bar this past week. Bummer.

Turns out, I probably should have purchased a Prius because my goal was to have a "normal" driving experience and save money on gas. I do care about the environment and not supporting big oil (but apparently not as much as some on this forum), and I felt like Nissan had finally succeeded in developing a mainstream electric vehicle that would fit my driving needs - and yes, I did put the miles on it - why not? I understood that there would be capacity losses, but that would be "years away" before it was significant (direct quote from Nissan rep at the LEAF road show). Honestly, I am not the guy who enjoyed driving 50-55 MPH on the freeway just to make it home - for those of you who feel the trade off to go EV is worth it, more power (no pun) to you.

I didn't "baby" the battery, but I definitely did not abuse it. I feel that my main failure is that I considered the car to be my ICE replacement (which I really should have not done). It was exposed to very temperate temperatures and really got a nice cool down every night. The capacity loss is most probably simply normal loss expected for a LEAF battery with 25k miles in a temperate climate (faster loss in places like inland CA, AZ, or TX and slower losses in Northern CA or WA)... And, this may be absolutely normal for any EV - I'm pretty sure it's worse for the LEAF though based on experiences from folks with Volts and Teslas. The biggest issue is that the LEAF has a range that becomes very, very difficult to work with after just losing 20% capacity: they recommend 80% charging, so with 80% of the battery capacity left (59 miles), you charge 80%, you have a range of 47 miles if you have the gumption to drive to VLBW - that's a usable range of 37 miles for most folks.... I think I agree with the statement that this is best for folks who drive 40 miles/day. If the battery loss happened to me, I am quite certain it will happen to most folks - it's just a matter of time and miles.

 

[Volusiano]

I think I agree with the statement that this is best for folks who drive 40 miles/day.

Actually, for folks in Phoenix, the 7500 miles NissanLEAFYear implies that it's only best for Phoenix folks to drive only 20 miles/day.

 

[gaswalla]

I think I agree with the statement that this is best for folks who drive 40 miles/day.

Actually, for folks in Phoenix, the 7500 miles NissanLEAFYear implies that it's only best for Phoenix folks who drive only 20 miles/day.

Yeah, you're right.. my "extreme" driving of 25k in 15 months is about 55 miles a day...doesn't seem so extreme anymore

 

[RegGuheert]

Add me to the list

Done.

Sorry about your loss, but congratulations on your upcoming Model S!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yeah, you're right.. my "extreme" driving of 25k in 15 months is about 55 miles a day...doesn't seem so extreme anymore

Can you imagine a jury of gas burning drivers listening to a Nissan lawyer explain how your "high mileage" is the problem? The real zinger will be the 20 miles a day is what you were supposed to drive, versus the 100 miles we advertised it would go.

 

[sparky]

Add me to the list
Date Of Loss 9/25/2012

Condolences.

... Meanwhile, I got my delivery date for my Model S (November!)

Awesome. I'm jealous. What pack size and what amount of degradation over 5 yrs are you assuming you'll see with the Tesla? You say you bought the LEAF to save on gas. You're sticking with an EV, but clearly the price difference (from a Prius) will buy a lot of gas. Other reasons?
Looking forward to hearing about your Model S. You might be the first MNL'er to upgrade.

 

[gaswalla]

Add me to the list
Date Of Loss 9/25/2012

Condolences.

... Meanwhile, I got my delivery date for my Model S (November!)

Awesome. I'm jealous. What pack size and what amount of degradation over 5 yrs are you assuming you'll see with the Tesla? You say you bought the LEAF to save on gas. You're sticking with an EV, but clearly the price difference (from a Prius) will buy a lot of gas. Other reasons?
Looking forward to hearing about your Model S. You might be the first MNL'er to upgrade.

So, I have learned quite a bit since buying my LEAF - I bought the LEAF to save on gas and I thought it made financial sense (based on the money saved on gas, and how it cheap it is to charge the car at night.) I am pretty disappointed by my experience with the LEAF, because it isn't cheaper when battery replacement is considered - (I am still very hesitant to believe any price less than 10k, even if Phil says it is), I really do not want to be the guy driving an EV going 50-55 MPH on the freeway just to make it home, and I really feel abandoned by Nissan - the whole EV ownership experience puts traditional automobile ownership upside down: there needs to be intense education and feedback on how to best maintain the vehicle and battery (I learned everything from this forum, the dealership kept trying to sell expensive cabin filters, tires, and unnecessary brake services)... I do really enjoy EV driving, but I am sure that EV's will fail if the public's opinion of EV's are LEAF's creeping around to maximize miles/charge with disgruntled owners involved in multiple class action lawsuits.

So this time, I have no fantasies about saving money by buying an EV: I am getting the 85 kwh battery pack on the Model S and am spending the money purely as an expensive luxury item - it's incredible to drive, and really is an incredible vehicle. If I save a few bucks on gas, great... I don't spend on other luxuries, why not enjoy life a bit.. As for expected battery degradation, Telsa is stating that they expect 70% capacity at 7 years (ouch.. sounds familiar?) but that the batteries are actually designed to have 70% well past 200k miles. Tesla does have a track record of taking care of their customers with battery concerns and has swapped out batteries if needed. Roadster owners that have over 50k miles are reporting 90+% capacity after 3+ years. That seems to be the average, there are a couple of Roadster owners at 100%, and one guy at 80%... no geographic variations though. The temperature management system on the Model S is superior to the Roadster's, so most are expecting even less degradation. The big difference is that after I lose 20%, whether that is after 2 years or 5 years, I will still have 200 mile capacity on the battery - it will still be more than enough.. I would have to lose 60% before it affects the usability of the car. Also, as long as Tesla stays in business, they have far superior customer service and transparency.. why is it so difficult to get a LEAF's battery capacity as a digital percentage? Why are we depending on a third party GID meter? Nissan can measure the capacity, why can't we just go to a dealer and get a transparent understanding of our battery? Tesla will review your battery data log with you when requested. The Model S batteries are also easily swapped for another - so I feel comfortable with being able to exchange/upgrade in the future. With all that I've learned about EV"s from owning a LEAF and from this forum, I'm ready "to go all in" with the Model S. The LEAF is a lot of fun to drive, but it really seems like a beta version, and something much better (less degradation, more power, more range) has to be planned if Nissan plans to stay in the game. My last comment is that BMW got it right by not letting people purchase the ActiveE (only leasing) - Nissan should have done the same for the first 3-5 years - the anger and outrage would be quite different.

 

[spooka]

Well, my LEAF is so fed up with this whole thing, it decided to speak for itself...

http://player.vimeo.com/video/50497959