Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[Stoaty]

I got a phone call from Nissan today. They will arrange my 2011 Leaf (purchased on July 2011) to have a battery check. I live in Houston area and lost 2 bars (one in July and one in August this year). In last battery check, I was informed that I was the first one lost 2 bars in their dealer. I think it is important to get our voice out and let Nissan know the HEAT is the problem in southern areas. They need to fix it.

Thank you for the report. Is your case tracked in the Wiki, would you know?

Yup, he is in the Wiki for loss of bars one and two.

 

[Weatherman]

Has anybody reported a lost bar in Florida yet? I thought the first Leafs in Florida started in July 2011. So that is over 1 year (one and half summers) ago. Didn't Arizona Leafs start to report lost bars by this time? ***from what I understand from the climate maps, Florida and the tropics don't get nearly as hot as Arizona and the desert does. It just feels that way to humans who sweat.***


Thanks.

With only, maybe, one or two exceptions, Florida residents didn't start receiving LEAFs until October last year, after temps started to cool off. We were a Tier 2 state during the rollout (unlike Texas, California and Arizona), so, with the exception of some demos, our LEAFs are 2012 models.

My expectation is that losses from Florida residents will start to appear in earnest next March and April. Just like most of the Arizona LEAFs survived their first summer ok, so have the Florida LEAFs survived their first summer ok.

And, the main problem with tropical locations, in regard to high temperatures, is that it doesn't cool off very much during the winter months. We get no break from the heat. South Florida, Hawaii, Puerto Rico can easily have high temps in the 80s and lows in the 70s in December, January and February.

Just to give you a quick example... It's October 11th and 11:15 pm ET and I have my A/C running because it's still 80 degrees outside, and today was considered a relatively mild day (it got up to 86 this afternoon). This kind of weather can easily last into late November or December.

 

[spooka]

+1 I have followed Wiltingleaf's advice and seem to be making some headway. BBB is the way to go IMO.

Not sure of that. I filed and was denied by BBB on the grounds that "disputes must arise under a participating manufacturer's written new vehicle warranty. As per your warranty manual; GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS" blah, blah, blah. I have the right to appeal the denial and will, but feel as if I am contesting all of the negative comments made here on MNL all over again. Maybe it's because I live in CA and not AZ. Or maybe Nissan has BBB all lined up now. Either way I now have two copies of my useless warranty. One when I bought the car and one from BBB.

I haven't reviewed CA law but I have seen links to it here on MNL. I am also not a lawyer so the following info is worth what you are paying for it. In AZ, there has to be a non-conformity in the car to apply the lemon law. The greatest non-conformity in the LEAF is Nissan's failure to disclose to the purchaser, that to obtain 5 years of usable battery life, the car can only be driven 20 miles a day in hot environments. Since the average car is driven 34 miles a day, Nissan had the duty to disclose this limitation. If driven 34 miles a day, just as any average automobile in the U.S. is, the useful life of a LEAF is about 36 months. Neither scenario is remotely acceptable for consumer expectations when buying any car, especially when the manufacturer is advertising a 100 mile daily range and 8 years of battery life. If Nissan knew of these severe driving limitations without stating them clearly to the consumer, they committed fraud. If they discovered them later, then they have a non-conformity they either need to correct or purchase the car back. I would argue that consumers DO expect a reasonable, gradual loss of range in the LEAF, along the lines that Nissan advertised. Instead, the consumer is given the choice to either drive their car 20 miles a day max from day 1 of ownership without ever being told to or have your battery end it's service life after only 3 years if you only drive average mileage. Neither option is either reasonable nor gradual.

In AZ, this is my best argument. Look at CA law. They must have a consumer law that would apply to this type of non-conformity.

 

[Herm]

I am also not a lawyer so the following info is worth what you are paying for it. In AZ, there has to be a non-conformity in the car to apply the lemon law. The greatest non-conformity in the LEAF is Nissan's failure to disclose to the purchaser, that to obtain 5 years of usable battery life, the car can only be driven 20 miles a day in hot environments.

I got stuck on your first statement so I will comment on it.. Nissan never said that was a fact so why would they have to disclose it?.. They just commented about it, not even blaming battery loss on that. I can tell you are not a lawyer, but you sure write pretty

 

[shrink]

Well said, spooka.

However, I don't believe driving only 20 miles a day will slow capacity loss that much. There are a few reports of very low mileage capacity bar losses in warm climates.

It's the heat - and for this particular chemistry, the lack of battery thermal management.

Nissan attempts to obfuscate this obvious fact have no credibility. It's like denying global warming - ignoring science.

I still love this Elon Musk quote from 2 years ago:

http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-ceo-rips-nissans-battery-technology-says-its-primitive-50527.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Musk believes that because Nissan's battery pack is passively air cooled instead of actively liquid cooled—like Tesla's battery packs—the LEAF's battery temperature will be “all over the place,” and result in “huge degradation.”

All this silly obsession about temperature bars and how to charge would largely be mitigated by TMS. Plug in when you can and the battery cools. While you're driving, the TMS will cool the battery. You don't have to worry about that great Nissan recommendation to park in the shade. Just remote start your car. The TMS will cool the battery during the day (although this is more practical with the Volt's range extender lest you get stranded in a BEV).

Regardless, it just makes sense to take extra precautions and care with the most important part of the car.

Nissan did not.

 

[TonyWilliams]

In AZ, this is my best argument. Look at CA law. They must have a consumer law that would apply to this type of non-conformity.

ARIZONA’S LEMON LAW

- two years or 24,000 miles, whichever is earlier
- a problem with the car that substantially impairs the use and value
- fails to successfully repair the defect after four attempts, or...
- out of service by reason of repair for a cumulative total of 30 or more calendar days

CALIFORNIA’S LEMON LAW

- the lessee or buyer is completely free to choose whether to accept a replacement or a refund
- Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act applies to your warranty period (3 years, 36,000 miles on LEAF in USA)
- does not apply if the problem was caused by abuse; follow the terms of the warranty for maintenance and use
- reasonable number of repair attempts for problems that substantially impair the use, value, or safety of the vehicle
- during the first 18 months / 18,000 miles "Lemon Law" presumes four or more repair attempts, or.....
- vehicle is out of service of more than 30 days since delivery of the vehicle

TEXAS' LEMON LAW

- $35 filing fee is charged for complaints about new vehicles
- Case Advisor to determine whether it meets the jurisdictional requirements of the law
- Administrative Law Ruling
- if unresolved, the State Office of Administrative Hearings (SOAH) has hearing(s)
- consumers must prove to the Administrative Law Judge that their vehicle is a lemon
- manufacturers also have the right to appear and present evidence and argument to the contrary

FLORIDA'S' LEMON LAW

- consumer has an unconditional right to choose a refund rather than a replacement motor vehicle
- "Lemon Law Rights Period" is the first 24 months
- recurring problem not fixed after three attempts, or....
- out of service for repair for 30 cumulative days
- you must complete a specific form provided on the Florida Secretary of State website
- you must submit your information to the proper arbitrator


Better Business Bureau: Here is the Arizona BBB and here is the California BBB. The Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc. is at 4200 Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, VA 22203; 1-703-276-0100

 

[Joeviocoe]

Has anybody reported a lost bar in Florida yet? I thought the first Leafs in Florida started in July 2011. So that is over 1 year (one and half summers) ago. Didn't Arizona Leafs start to report lost bars by this time? ***from what I understand from the climate maps, Florida and the tropics don't get nearly as hot as Arizona and the desert does. It just feels that way to humans who sweat.***


Thanks.

With only, maybe, one or two exceptions, Florida residents didn't start receiving LEAFs until October last year, after temps started to cool off. We were a Tier 2 state during the rollout (unlike Texas, California and Arizona), so, with the exception of some demos, our LEAFs are 2012 models.

My expectation is that losses from Florida residents will start to appear in earnest next March and April. Just like most of the Arizona LEAFs survived their first summer ok, so have the Florida LEAFs survived their first summer ok.

And, the main problem with tropical locations, in regard to high temperatures, is that it doesn't cool off very much during the winter months. We get no break from the heat. South Florida, Hawaii, Puerto Rico can easily have high temps in the 80s and lows in the 70s in December, January and February.

Just to give you a quick example... It's October 11th and 11:15 pm ET and I have my A/C running because it's still 80 degrees outside, and today was considered a relatively mild day (it got up to 86 this afternoon). This kind of weather can easily last into late November or December.

"Just like most of the Arizona LEAFs survived their first summer ok, so have the Florida LEAFs survived their first summer ok."

But there were SOME Arizona Leafs that did NOT survive the first summer, right? Has any FL Leafs reported any lost bars yet?

What are the sales statistics for the first 12 months in Arizona and what are they for the first 12 months in Florida? Anybody know how many FL Leafs are driving around now?

" it doesn't cool off very much during the winter months. We get no break from the heat."

Yes, I can attest to this. I lived in Orlando for 10 years, and just moved recently. So I know all about hot Decembers and A/C usage

That makes sense.
Mean Temperature over the life of the Battery is a main factor in calendar life degradation. There are two ways to get a High Mean Temp. Have VERY high temps during a few months a year. Or have high temps for several months a year. But the second main factor in calendar life degradation, is Standard Deviation of temperature too. Arizona has colder nights than Florida (moisture hold heat longer in the air) so the deviation should be higher for Arizona than Florida. How cold does it get in Arizona winters?

Thanks for that insight.

"My expectation is that losses from Florida residents will start to appear in earnest next March and April."

I have more optimistic expectations, but I only have speculation to go on. So it's just an opinion that Florida Leafs will fair much better than Arizona.
I'm gonna guess that less than 10% of FL Leafs sold will have a greater than *1.5x aging factor or 6%/yr. *(1.0 = 4% capacity loss per year) (am I using this term correctly?)
Meaning that for only 10% of FL Leafs, the first bars would disappear after 2.5 years, and the remaining Leafs would lose that bar at the normal 3.75 years.
Probably optimistic, but we'll see in a year or so.

So we're on the same page, what is the percentage of affected Leafs to Leafs sold, in Arizona... and the average aging factor of those Leafs?? (xx% 1.x - AZ 2012)
AND what are your expectations in Florida for next year, in those same terms? (xx% 1.x - FL 2013)
Thanks. Your input and expectations will help me get an idea of how the problem might spread.
I might create a spreadsheet analysis by state in those terms. Maybe

 

[Weatherman]

what are your expectations in Florida for next year, in those same terms? (xx% 1.x - FL 2013)
Thanks.

I wouldn't expect any Florida LEAF to survive past the 20,000 mile mark without losing one bar, or we can, pretty much, throw the Arrhenius equation out the window as a predictive factor. For the typical 12,000 mile/year early adopter that means the first bar will fall next spring.

Even with "normal" temperatures, a t^(1/2) degradation rate suggests a 16% loss at the three year or 36,000 mile mark (to reach 20% at 5 years). For any Florida LEAF to reach 3.75 years without losing a bar would be really extraordinary.

 

[Pipcecil]

I got a phone call from Nissan today. They will arrange my 2011 Leaf (purchased on July 2011) to have a battery check. I live in Houston area and lost 2 bars (one in July and one in August this year). In last battery check, I was informed that I was the first one lost 2 bars in their dealer. I think it is important to get our voice out and let Nissan know the HEAT is the problem in southern areas. They need to fix it.

I honestly don't see the pattern that Nissan is doing. yfhong was not the first capacity looser in Texas (jhm614 was) nor has he gotten intense media coverage (I think I have had the most from Texas). I don't know how much pressure he put on Nissan (BBB filings, court filings, etc.). I think my best guess on whom Nissan contacts is a combo of time versus mileage (which we all know are correlated to loss). So taking those cars with the lower mileage and the quickest loss of bars is probably what they are basing their decisions on.

Following that trend the Arizona cars that have been studied just recently (or bought back) had lower (note still excessive under a Nissan Year) mileage and quicker time to loss that other vehicles. If that is the case, it may be a long time, if ever, Nissan looks or considers my car since I have a copious amount of miles on my vehicle (26,000 after 16 months) despite being the second car to loose capacity in Texas and getting a small media spotlight.

 

[ALLWATZ]

Not sure of that. I filed and was denied by BBB on the grounds that "disputes must arise under a participating manufacturer's written new vehicle warranty. As per your warranty manual; GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS" blah, blah, blah. I have the right to appeal the denial and will, but feel as if I am contesting all of the negative comments made here on MNL all over again. Maybe it's because I live in CA and not AZ. Or maybe Nissan has BBB all lined up now. Either way I now have two copies of my useless warranty. One when I bought the car and one from BBB.

Just curious, did you go straight to the BBB after calling customer service at Nissan or have you been to the dealer many times throughout? The BBB process is pretty well defined and both Wilting Leaf and I were constantly in contact with the dealers and gave them lots of opportunities to address the issues.

Been to the dealer twice and contacted Nissan CS twice. Plan on going to a another dealer tommorrow that I have been to in the past for other items (there are 2 dealers here in the area). Contacted BBB after 1st bar loss and was sent a packet to fill out and return. Before I did, and after my 2nd bar loss, received a letter saying I was denied because of "Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act applies to your warranty period (3 years, 36,000 miles on LEAF in USA)" and the drivel about gradual loss not covered. The letter didn't even mention the part about "problems that substantially impair the use or value" which I beleive this clearly does. Plan on using news clips about the AZ "goodwill" buybacks using AZ Lemon Laws as examples for my rebuttle of the denial. Remember, at this point I have to prove (and succeed) that I have the right to even be granted an appeal (to be heard by Nissan). Any suggestions are welcome.

 

[ALLWATZ]

P.S. the representitive who I spoke to at BBB, when I questioned the denial, told me to report issue to NHTSA. Something I mentioned and did on my first post back in early Aug.

 

[Stoaty]

First report of bar loss in Oklahoma posted on Facebook. I will add to the Wiki.

Sara Rose Piehler
I purchased a leaf from my brother in law in February of this year (8500). I just noticed the battery bar seems to be missing the top bar. This is just a recent thing. i had full capacity in the beginning. It has around 15,000 miles. I live in Oklahoma. I plug in every chance I get.

I just read the article regarding battery loss in the Arizona market.

I guess I assumed I could get quite a few more miles out of my car before i would lose battery capacity.

I was wondering at about what mile any of you leaf owners noticed a loss, where you are from, and your main source of charging.

For me: 15,000, Oklahoma, and trickle charger.

Thank you.

 

[Weatherman]

You have to wonder whether "I plug in every chance I get" means she was maintaining a high SOC on her battery right through the summer heat.

I suppose it's a habit that’s hard to break, especially when all you have is a 120V EVSE. You always want to have a nice, full battery in case there’s some "unexpected" trip you need to immediately take. I bet a lot of people plug in every chance they get, and don't realize it may not be a good thing to do (especially when no one told them it might be a bad thing to do).

 

[RegGuheert]

I suppose it's a habit that’s hard to break, especially when all you have is a 120V EVSE. You always want to have a nice, full battery in case there’s some "unexpected" trip you need to immediately take. I bet a lot of people plug in every chance they get, and don't realize it may not be a good thing to do (especially when no one told them it might be a bad thing to do).

It's also the best practice for lead-acid batteries, assuming the charger has a float or trickle mode. Agreed, this habit is one of the really tough communication issues that needs to be dealt with regarding today's EV battery technology.

It's also possible that her brother-in-law recommended that she do this...

 

[Weatherman]

Just a little tidbit from this study:

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/53817.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"...fade rates are some 25% to 30% lower when battery operation is restricted to 80% SOCmax versus allowing full utilization up to 100% SOCmax. The just-in-time charging scenario V, however, shows little sensitivity to SOCmax as that scenario keeps the average SOC low regardless of SOCmax limit (Table 2). The result points to a tangible benefit to battery life by delaying the beginning of charge until several hours before the next driving trip. In practice, it will be difficult to realize the full benefits of just-in-time charging without good knowledge of when the next driving trip will occur."

 

[mwalsh]

Just a little tidbit from this study:

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/53817.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"...fade rates are some 25% to 30% lower when battery operation is restricted to 80% SOCmax versus allowing full utilization up to 100% SOCmax. The just-in-time charging scenario V, however, shows little sensitivity to SOCmax as that scenario keeps the average SOC low regardless of SOCmax limit (Table 2). The result points to a tangible benefit to battery life by delaying the beginning of charge until several hours before the next driving trip. In practice, it will be difficult to realize the full benefits of just-in-time charging without good knowledge of when the next driving trip will occur."

I tend to agree with this concept. However, given the choice between charging to 100% or a daily deep discharge event, I'm going to choose charging to 100% every time. Hopefully Nissan has hidden a good portion of the 3kWh we don't have access to up there instead of at the bottom of the pack.

 

[Weatherman]

I think the point may be that, if you have a very good idea of when and how much you'll be driving the car, you can maintain a low SOC (say around 30%) most of the time, and there's a benefit in doing so. A few hours before you are ready to leave you charge the battery, but only up to the amount you'll need. So, for a 15 mile trip, you might charge it up to 50%. Or, for a 30 mile trip, you might charge up to 65%.

I'm sure this is far more effort than most people are willing to do, but for those in hot summer climates, there might be a benefit in taking the extra effort, especially from June through September.

 

[Stoaty]

You have to wonder whether "I plug in every chance I get" means she was maintaining a high SOC on her battery right through the summer heat.

I suppose it's a habit that’s hard to break, especially when all you have is a 120V EVSE. You always want to have a nice, full battery in case there’s some "unexpected" trip you need to immediately take. I bet a lot of people plug in every chance they get, and don't realize it may not be a good thing to do (especially when no one told them it might be a bad thing to do).

That is why the default should be an 80% charge, not 100% charge. She lives closest to Tulsa, OK (battery aging factor just calculated at 1.08), so one has to wonder whether leaving the battery at 100% charge is a signficant part of her early capacity loss.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I tend to agree with this concept. However, given the choice between charging to 100% or a daily deep discharge event, I'm going to choose charging to 100% every time. Hopefully Nissan has hidden a good portion of the 3kWh we don't have access to up there instead of at the bottom of the pack.

While I agree with you, it depends on how deep the discharge I would think. I wouldn't want to go below VLBW on a regular basis, based on the voltage plots that have been posted.

FWIW, Ingineer has measured "100%" as 94-95% of full, 80% is really 80%, and said that the contactors open at 2% (end of turtle). So there is a bit more at the top than the bottom, although nowhere near 3 kWh blocked off.

 

[ALLWATZ]

You have to wonder whether "I plug in every chance I get" means she was maintaining a high SOC on her battery right through the summer heat.

I suppose it's a habit that’s hard to break, especially when all you have is a 120V EVSE. You always want to have a nice, full battery in case there’s some "unexpected" trip you need to immediately take. I bet a lot of people plug in every chance they get, and don't realize it may not be a good thing to do (especially when no one told them it might be a bad thing to do).

That is why the default should be an 80% charge, not 100% charge. She lives closest to Tulsa, OK (battery aging factor just calculated at 1.08), so one has to wonder whether leaving the battery at 100% charge is a signficant part of her early capacity loss.

Agreed, but if Nissan were to do this they, would have to stop advertising their vaulted 73 mile range as this would be affected by only an 80% charge. I'm not entirely sure this wouldn't also affect the EPA posting as that should be tied to the amount of charge too.