Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[DaveEV]

I re-read my TED display and realized that I was off a bit on the reading, so I edited my post. Changes are in bold above. No substantive change in the conclusion, though.

Your correction actually makes your wall / gauge capacity measurements match even closer according to my calculations.

 

[JPWhite]

Yeah but I just cain't get 'er done. I'm doing well to get 4.2 and that's with careful driving with zero freeway. :roll:

I'm able to get 5.1 on the dash calculated over 1,900 miles. Zero freeway. You are using ECO right?

Try coasting downhill instead of regenerating. You need to pick the hills that are long enough to make it worthwhile the hassle of switching to neutral and back to Drive/ECO/CC. Be sure to use cruise control where appropriate.

I do not use A/C in the morning (readneck A/c if its too warm), I use A/C just for the afternoon drive home.

 

[nosuchthing]

I have lost my 1st bar today. 2 years almost to the day, 37,800 miles.

Not too shocked b/c I noticed that I'm down about 5 range miles as of recent times. But it's an unpleasant surprise to be sure.

So what now? Find and replace the weakest cells in the pack and get them replaced? I think I read that is not in the cards as in being useless. So, what's the recourse here? Do I get to call Nissan only after the 2nd bar bites the dust?

Please no funnies. What's the longer-term plan here? Am I going to lose another bar (2nd) in another 2 years? Much later as the degradation process slows? Or much faster?

 

[TomT]

Until you lose four and can take advantage of the capacity warranty, there really is no plan currently...
It is a lot cooler up there so YMMV, but I lost my second bar in about half the time it took to lose the first one...

So what now? FInd and replace the weakest cells in the pack? Yeah, right? What's the recourse here? Anyone?
Please no funnies. What's the longer-term plan here. Am I going to lose another on in another 2 years? Much later as the degradation process slows?

 

[edatoakrun]

I have lost my 1st bar today. 2 years almost to the day, 37,800 miles.

Not too shocked b/c I noticed that I'm down about 5 range miles as of recent times. But it's an unpleasant surprise to be sure.

So what now? Find and replace the weakest cells in the pack and get them replaced? I think I read that is not in the cards as in being useless. So, what's the recourse here? Do I get to call Nissan only after the 2nd bar bites the dust?

Please no funnies. What's the longer-term plan here? Am I going to lose another bar (2nd) in another 2 years? Much later as the degradation process slows? Or much faster?

Are you aware of the software update?

I'm in no hurry to do it myself...

TomT

Post subject: Had the capacity meter reprogram done today

PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:04 am

Location: Foothills of Granada Hills, CA
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360

I needed to get a couple of others things done so had the campaign for the capacity gauge reprogram done at the same time today...

Very interesting! I am now showing 11 capacity bars where before I had 10! We'll see what an overnight 100% charge brings...

_________________
Red SL-e with 33K miles/10 bars/220Gids. Ordered 9/1/10 (Fontana Nissan).

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TomT]

Based on my experience to date, I haven't seen any downside... (See the discussion on this in the other threads.)
Sooner or later though, when you do an annual battery check or some other service, it is going to get pushed to the car anyway...
The dealer told me that it is mandatory and the dealers are required to do it whenever a car comes in for service.

Are you aware of the software update?
I'm in no hurry to do it myself...

 

[Valdemar]

I have lost my 1st bar today. 2 years almost to the day, 37,800 miles.

Not too shocked b/c I noticed that I'm down about 5 range miles as of recent times. But it's an unpleasant surprise to be sure.

So what now? Find and replace the weakest cells in the pack and get them replaced? I think I read that is not in the cards as in being useless. So, what's the recourse here? Do I get to call Nissan only after the 2nd bar bites the dust?

Please no funnies. What's the longer-term plan here? Am I going to lose another bar (2nd) in another 2 years? Much later as the degradation process slows? Or much faster?

Despite the fact that Nissan's claimed estimates for 20% capacity loss after 5 years and 30% after 10 were proven to be somewhat detached from reality they hint that degradation tends to slow down over time, given the environment and car usage don't change drastically. By your current mileage I presume you bought the car. To be on the safe side consider linear capacity loss and determine when reduced range will make your life with the car difficult. At that point you will either need to get rid of the car or get the battery replaced. The cost of the battery is not yet known but I'll be surprised if it will be less than $12,000. You need to decide for yourself what you're more comfortable with - take a hit and sell the car now for about $16,000 if not less, or keep driving it hoping that savings on fuel will significantly offset the cost of new battery or whatever you will be able to get for the car when that time comes. Given your current capacity loss I seriously doubt you'll be able to get your battery replaced under the new warranty as your battery pack just won't degrade fast enough before you exceed the cut-off mileage of 60,000 miles.

The good news for those who put a lot of miles on their cars is that it seems that capacity loss from cycling the battery, considering good charging practices are used, is much less than say from high temperatures and just age, so you're likely to recover more in fuel savings than someone who drives less considering the car is sold after the same length of ownership.

 

[nosuchthing]

I'm getting the P3227, REPROG NTB13-O61I0 update. That is supposed to "fix" the problem and possibly return the 12th bar. I'll report how it went.

 

[Valdemar]

I'm getting the P3227, REPROG NTB13-O61I0 update. That is supposed to "fix" the problem and possibly return the 12th bar. I'll report how it went.

It is not going to magically restore your battery to new. The missing bar may return, and it may delay further visible bar loss, benefiting Nissan and not you.

 

[TomT]

I think that any bars that might return - and it is far from clear that will be the case - are more likely to be those below the 12th bar which have far more granularity.

I'm getting the P3227, REPROG NTB13-O61I0 update. That is supposed to "fix" the problem and possibly return the 12th bar. I'll report how it went.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...At that point you will either need to get rid of the car or get the battery replaced. The cost of the battery is not yet known but I'll be surprised if it will be less than $12,000. You need to decide for yourself what you're more comfortable with - take a hit and sell the car now for about $16,000 if not less, or keep driving it hoping that savings on fuel will significantly offset the cost of new battery or whatever you will be able to get for the car when that time comes...

I'll be surprised if the battery cost (assuming trade-in of old one) is anywhere near $12,000. I'm hoping for quite a bit lower than that due to economies of scale at the new battery plant in Smyrna.

 

[Boomer23]

Yeah but I just cain't get 'er done. I'm doing well to get 4.2 and that's with careful driving with zero freeway. :roll:

I'm able to get 5.1 on the dash calculated over 1,900 miles. Zero freeway. You are using ECO right?

Try coasting downhill instead of regenerating. You need to pick the hills that are long enough to make it worthwhile the hassle of switching to neutral and back to Drive/ECO/CC. Be sure to use cruise control where appropriate.

I do not use A/C in the morning (readneck A/c if its too warm), I use A/C just for the afternoon drive home.

Nope, no ECO for me. I only use it to increase regen and avoid friction braking when I'm approaching a stoplight or sign and I'm going to have to stop anyway. Otherwise ECO is too sluggish for me. And on the freeway, I'm not convinced that ECO does any good if I'm not using air conditioning. I drive in a hypermiling manner (no abrupt accel or decel, brake as little as possible, don't accelerate up hills, etc), but I'm not going to go the coasting route because I don't want to be in neutral while under way.

 

[TimLee]

... but I'm not going to go the coasting route because I don't want to be in neutral while under way.

I understand your sentiment. I was of the same opinion and did not use coasting at all the first 18 months of owning the LEAF.
For an ICE vehicle I think coasting is a bad idea, as most do depend quite a bit on engine braking.
Although the LEAF also loses regenerative braking while in neutral, the LEAF brakes were designed to be fully functional with no regenerative braking. So after thinking about it I have come to the conclusion that LEAF neutral operation is acceptable. Although I don't use it a lot, it can save a lot of energy on just the right gradual downgrade where the coasting speed works out to be close to the posted speed limit.
It only takes an instant to put it back in drive.
It would be better if you could change the default to make it go straight into Eco instead of Drive though.

 

[ChinaDad]

In the last few weeks, we've lost one of the 'available' bars (see picture). We've put 17,000 miles on it in 14 months. I immediately called the dealer, and he said it's normal, we'd lose one bar and then won't lose any more, and he's seen it in cars with only 6 months of use. He's had Nissan Engineers evaluate it and it's 'normal'. Battery test from 3/28/2012 was normal, 12 status bars, 5 stars.

At 100% charge, we only get about 3-5 miles now off of the 12th bar. I think I've had 10% drop in range in the last handful of months but I have no evidence to support that. Sometimes my old leadfoot ways return when I least expect it, so I don't want to shout much about overall range, but I "feel" like it's dropped significantly, and the loss of a bar supports that.

Has anyone else seen this? This does not seem like the 'gradual' loss advertised.


EDIT: 7/30/2012
Summary of thread: This is definitely a problem in hot climates. There appears to be NO correlation to car color, air conditioned garages, 80% charging, driving efficiency, miles driven, quick charging, or anything else beside outside ambient temperature. In other words, cars are being treated exactly as outlined in the owner's manual. We personally know at least a dozen leaf owners, many not mentioned below that have lost at least 15% capacity. According to the ScanGuage, the 2 that haven't lost one, are in the 80's and will be losing one soon. Nissan still claims this is normal, gradual loss and not covered under warranty. Phoenix has now seen up to 30% loss in one year, 25,000 miles of driving.

After a news story run on CBS5 Phoenix, Nissan decided to take 6 of the most affected cars out to Casa Grande for testing. Results are not available as of yet.

Also: I updated the title of this thread. 11 bars is the least of our problems at this point!

For an updated list of affected owners, as reported to members of this thread, see the wiki:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For an another summary of some of the topics in this thread, see this post:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I live in Tennessee with moderate climate though it has been in the 80s the last few days. About 3 to 4 weeks ago my capacity bars went from 10 to 6. My range has declined about 20 miles from just a few weeks ago. I am very unhappy.

To date my local Nissan dealer still has not heard about the supposed new battery warranty and seems unwilling to call Nissan corporate. I was told by a nice rep at the 1-800 Leaf number that I should hear something by 6/22. Well it is 6/14 and I still am waiting. I am considering seeking legal advice to see what be advised though I think the new warranty would resolve my issue, assuming it happens and my dealer is notified.

 

[Valdemar]

I'll be surprised if the battery cost (assuming trade-in of old one) is anywhere near $12,000. I'm hoping for quite a bit lower than that due to economies of scale at the new battery plant in Smyrna.

I hope you're right. The value of the trade-in of a used battery is a moot point as it is not very clear how much of used materials can be harvested during recycling and at what cost. Don't forget you'll need to pay for the new battery installation. I wouldn't be surprised if it will be required to install it at a dealer according to the replacement battery warranty terms, with that add at least $1k for the labor at dealership rates.

 

[Valdemar]

I live in Tennessee with moderate climate though it has been in the 80s the last few days. About 3 to 4 weeks ago my capacity bars went from 10 to 6. My range has declined about 20 miles from just a few weeks ago. I am very unhappy.

To date my local Nissan dealer still has not heard about the supposed new battery warranty and seems unwilling to call Nissan corporate. I was told by a nice rep at the 1-800 Leaf number that I should hear something by 6/22. Well it is 6/14 and I still am waiting. I am considering seeking legal advice to see what be advised though I think the new warranty would resolve my issue, assuming it happens and my dealer is notified.

Consider yourself lucky, as you may be getting a new battery soon.

 

[Stoaty]

I live in Tennessee with moderate climate though it has been in the 80s the last few days. About 3 to 4 weeks ago my capacity bars went from 10 to 6. My range has declined about 20 miles from just a few weeks ago.

That sounds like sudden failure of a module, which would be covered under the original battery pack warranty, even without the new warranty Nissan put in place. I would have the Leaf checked at the dealer.

 

[TimLee]

I live in Tennessee ...About 3 to 4 weeks ago my capacity bars went from 10 to 6. My range has declined about 20 miles from just a few weeks ago. I am very unhappy.

To date my local Nissan dealer still has not heard about the supposed new battery warranty and seems unwilling to call Nissan corporate.

You need to find a better dealer to service the vehicle.
Any competent dealer service department that had a vehicle that quickly lost from 10 capacity bars down to 6 capacity bars should have been on the phone to Nissan corporate immediately to confirm which battery test(s) should be performed.
You don't say where in Tennessee you are located.
Mountain View Nissan in Chattanooga service department is great.
In Nashville there are 11 Nissan dealers in the general area, plenty to choose from there, and someone in the Nashville area can probably provide a good recommendation. Nearly 400 LEAFs in Nashville.
If you're at 6 capacity bars, something is definitely wrong and should be covered by the original warranty.
Find a good service department. You don't have to get the vehicle serviced where you bought it.

 

[ChinaDad]

I live in Tennessee ...About 3 to 4 weeks ago my capacity bars went from 10 to 6. My range has declined about 20 miles from just a few weeks ago. I am very unhappy.

To date my local Nissan dealer still has not heard about the supposed new battery warranty and seems unwilling to call Nissan corporate.

You need to find a better dealer to service the vehicle.
Any competent dealer service department that had a vehicle that quickly lost from 10 capacity bars down to 6 capacity bars should have been on the phone to Nissan corporate immediately to confirm which battery test(s) should be performed.
You don't say where in Tennessee you are located.
Mountain View Nissan in Chattanooga service department is great.
In Nashville there are 11 Nissan dealers in the general area, plenty to choose from there, and someone in the Nashville area can probably provide a good recommendation. Nearly 400 LEAFs in Nashville.
If you're at 6 capacity bars, something is definitely wrong and should be covered by the original warranty.
Find a good service department. You don't have to get the vehicle serviced where you bought it.

I work across the street. It is Oak Ridge. We have bought several cars there and have always had great service, even now with Rogue. They tell me "we'll we have sold about 10 of those and do not see them that much" and stuff like that. When I go back to pick up my Leaf I will ask if 5 bars is covered under original warranty. Thanks!

 

[JPWhite]

Otherwise ECO is too sluggish for me.

I hear ya.

I was of the same opinion when I got my LEAF. Hated ECO. Started using ECO on decel like you are doing, in the end the switching back and forth between ECO and D got tiresome, by which time I'd learned how to get 'full power' from ECO. It's easy, you just mash down on the accelerator if you need the power Old ICE habits of small accelerator pedal movements will give-way to using a much larger range of pedal motion in ECO and you'll not miss Drive. Just give it some time and you'll make the adjustment just fine, in fact you'll learn to appreciate the greater precision available in ECO vs D.