Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[RegGuheert]

It's from the Leaf service manual.

It's not in the one I downloaded in March 2012. My MWI service manual says it is an April 2011 revision. Does anyone know what revision contained the capacity bar table shown in the Wiki?

I've been wondering about that, too. I haven't been able to find it in my April 2011 revision.I see two Power Meter (bubble gauge) charts, the battery temperature gauge chart, the (old) available charge gauge chart, and pages and pages of "half full" pictures showing how the battery capacity interacts with the other gauges, but no battery capacity gauge numbers.

Ray

After a little bit more research, I am convinced that table came from an earlier version of the Service Manual. Based on the following thread the older manual was downloaded by 'aqn' on April 3, 2011 and had a size of 1,845,654 bytes:

I downloaded 49 pdf files, and they are named with a title and a two or three character acronym, such as Body Interior INT or Audio Visual and Navigation AV.

I got 51 files:

-rw-------+ 1 Administrators None 1845654 2011-04-03 16:35 MWI.pdf

That file almost certainly was not the April 2011 Revision based on the download date and the fact that the April revision is 2,219,459 bytes.

None of this is to say that the old manual is wrong, but it does seem true that Nissan has removed the capacity bar information from the service manual for some reason.

 

[edatoakrun]

Would someone who has access to the "old" manual, including the chart, please re-post the capacity bar chart along with the related content so that we all can see the context, and try to make our own determination of the meaning and validity of "15%"?

...it does seem true that Nissan has removed the capacity bar information from the service manual for some reason.

 

[vegastar]

I think it is strange that everyone loses a capacity bar when the gid count drops to 225 at 100% charge. That is exactly 80% of 281, and it implies that the lost capacuty is 20% and not 15%. Are the gid counts on a 80% charge also 80% of the 231 gids a new pack has when charged to 80%, for a pack with a 11 capacity bars?

Could it be that the 15% drop for 11 bars information in the service manual is wrong and so they retired the information from the SM?

 

[TickTock]

Would someone who has access to the "old" manual, including the chart, please re-post the capacity bar chart along with the related content so that we all can see the context, and try to make our own determination of the meaning and validity of "15%"?

...it does seem true that Nissan has removed the capacity bar information from the service manual for some reason.

I only see a chart for the available charge guage. Not sure you can apply the same numbers to the battery capacity level guage.

[EDIT: Note this is page MWI-25. The Wiki indicates the table came from MWI-23 and there is no chart on that page in my April 2011 copy. So maybe there is an even earlier version with a chart for battery capacity level]

 

[Stoaty]

Could it be that the 15% drop for 11 bars information in the service manual is wrong and so they retired the information from the SM?

Much more likely they wanted to keep this kind of info out of the hands of the unwashed masses.

 

[JPWhite]

Would someone who has access to the "old" manual, including the chart, please re-post the capacity bar chart along with the related content so that we all can see the context, and try to make our own determination of the meaning and validity of "15%"?

...it does seem true that Nissan has removed the capacity bar information from the service manual for some reason.

I only see a chart for the available charge guage. Not sure you can apply the same numbers to the battery capacity level guage.

[EDIT: Note this is page MWI-25. The Wiki indicates the table came from MWI-23 and there is no chart on that page in my April 2011 copy. So maybe there is an even earlier version with a chart for battery capacity level]

Thanks for posting that image.

This explains to me why energy bars occasionally 'disappear' after parking the LEAF. While driving it delays the bar going out a little longer than it does when sitting idle. I had always suspected that it was slightly optimistic during a drive and slightly pessimistic while turned off, this chart would support such a hypothesis

 

[Volusiano]

I wonder if any of the people on the list of 11-bar capacity has the winter package with their battery pack wrapped in insulation?

I remember at one of the Nissan drive events, when the winter package became available already, I asked one of the Nissan reps there whether the battery insulation for the winter package may be bad for Leafs in hot weather states like Phoenix or not because it may trap in the heat generated by the battery in the summer? He said on the contrary, because the Leaf's battery pack does not generate too much heat from within, the insulation actually shields the external summer ambient heat from the battery instead.

That's why I wonder whether having the insulation on the battery might have helped? I wonder if that may become one of the options Nissan will offer to help alleviate further capacity loss for hot weather Leafs? It seems like it's something doable, designing an insulation package that can be installed after the fact onto existing uninsulated batteries.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Dispersing QC heat will be huge challenge for the start, and heat generated while L2 is also substantial. I will try anything what will help now, desperately waiting because heat is not waiting

 

[Randy]

Here's the table from the first Service Manual....

 

[RegGuheert]

Here's the table from the first Service Manual....

Thanks, Randy!

 

[ravi100]

Well I took my vehicle in to my dealership today for retesting (I knew what their response was going to be but I wanted
to go through the motions anyway before I called the Nissan Leaf Hotline). Predictably they didn't even understand what I
was trying to tell them.

1. First response - you lost a bar because you haven't charged it fully

2. Second response - it might be because of the "heat wave" we are having

3. Third response - The number of bars can vary due to "conditions" and could come back to 12

Anyway, they printed out a test report and I have called and letf a message on the 800
number to lodge an official complaint.

My question - have all of the 17 owners on the list called Nissan directly on this? If not,
don't you think some concerted action by all of us will elicit a better response than "oh its normal/expected"?

 

[RegGuheert]

Well I took my vehicle in to my dealership today for retesting (I knew what their response was going to be but I wanted
to go through the motions anyway before I called the Nissan Leaf Hotline). Predictably they didn't even understand what I was trying to tell them.

To me it seems like your dealership needs to read the manuals that Nissan publishes on the LEAF:

1. First response - you lost a bar because you haven't charged it fully

Here is what the 2011 LEAF Owner's Manual Revised says on page 2-10:

LI-ION BATTERY CAPACITY LEVEL GAUGE
This gauge indicates the amount of charge the Li-ion battery is capable of storing.
When the capacity of the Li-ion battery decreases with age and usage, the level of the gauge will also decrease.

2. Second response - it might be because of the "heat wave" we are having

Here is what they say on page MWI-24 of the 2011 Nissan LEAF Service Manual, Revision April 2011:

Li-ion battery capacity level gauge is immune to temperature change.

3. Third response - The number of bars can vary due to "conditions" and could come back to 12

The two quotes listed for 1 and 2 above also contradict this statement.

 

[planet4ever]

I only see a chart for the available charge guage. Not sure you can apply the same numbers to the battery capacity level guage.

Thanks for posting that image. This explains to me why energy bars occasionally 'disappear' after parking the LEAF. While driving it delays the bar going out a little longer than it does when sitting idle. I had always suspected that it was slightly optimistic during a drive and slightly pessimistic while turned off, this chart would support such a hypothesis

Yes, this has been referred to elsewhere on this board as the hysteresis effect. But please be aware that the numbers in that chart are no longer valid. This is "old bars" for those of us who were around before the March 2011 upgrade.

Ray

 

[Volusiano]

Dispersing QC heat will be huge challenge for the start, and heat generated while L2 is also substantial. I will try anything what will help now, desperately waiting because heat is not waiting

While what you're saying makes sense for QC, I'm not sure if L2 generated heat is substantial enough to cause concern or not. Does anybody have data about L2 generated heat being bad enough to be detrimental to the battery in hot weather?

At least with QC, you have a choice to not use it in the summer time. With L2, that's almost a universal way of charging so I'm not sure how you can avoid it (if it's truly detrimental).

And which is the lesser of the 2 evils? Insulating from hot ambient temperatures outside or not insulating to release the heat from inside?

Also, does that mean winter weather package is not advisable to owners in hot climate areas at all (not taking upgrade cost into consideration)?

 

[Herm]

Do we know for a fact that the winter package includes insulation for the battery?

 

[Volusiano]

Do we know for a fact that the winter package includes insulation for the battery?

I thought that was a foregone conclusion/fact mentioned in many places that added battery insulation comes with the package, no? I just googled it and found many references to it.

Also, for 2012 model year, it's built-in/priced-in to the car, not just an option. So you don't have a choice NOT to have it. I used to think I was lucky not to have to pay for it and worry about the insulation negative effect here in AZ. Now I wish that maybe I had it.

This begs the question of whether anybody from the 11-capacity-bar list has the weather package or not (either 2011 or 2012 MY)?

It'll also be interesting to see if 2012 owners in AZ will see 11-capacity-bar sooner or later than 2011 AZ owners.

 

[palmermd]

It'll also be interesting to see if 2012 owners in AZ will see 11-capacity-bar sooner or later than 2011 AZ owners.

Once we have our LeafScan's it would be interesting to park two cars (one with and one without the CWP) in a hot parking lot and see if the CWP pack stays cooler.

 

[JPWhite]

That's why I wonder whether having the insulation on the battery might have helped? I wonder if that may become one of the options Nissan will offer to help alleviate further capacity loss for hot weather Leafs? It seems like it's something doable, designing an insulation package that can be installed after the fact onto existing uninsulated batteries.

I suppose the analogy I would use is that the blanket will act like a thermos container. If you put something cold in it it stays cold, if you put something hot in it it stays hot. If the battery gets hot then it will then not cool very well. Insulation will help in the short term, but eventually the battery will assume room temperature so to speak.

 

[Stoaty]

I suppose the analogy I would use is that the blanket will act like a thermos container. If you put something cold in it it stays cold, if you put something hot in it it stays hot. If the battery gets hot then it will then not cool very well. Insulation will help in the short term, but eventually the battery will assume room temperature so to speak.

If the problem is higher average temperature, the insulation wouldn't help. However, if the problem is higher temperature spikes (e.g., for a few hours) then smoothing out those spikes could decrease the problem to some degree. Bottom line is Leaf needs a more heat resistant battery chemistry, or a TMS.

 

[Cheezmo]

1. First response - you lost a bar because you haven't charged it fully

2. Second response - it might be because of the "heat wave" we are having

3. Third response - The number of bars can vary due to "conditions" and could come back to 12

Three strikes, and he is OOOOOUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTT!


Seriously, makes you feel good about a products when the people that service them don't even know what anything means.

I'm trying to think what the proper response to that should be.

I guess I would look confused, and then ask: "Are you stupid? Or lying to me?"