Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[jspearman]

Mine goes in on Wednesday to officially start jumping through hoops. :roll:

Good luck. Just read about the new Chevy Spark and it mentioned that Chevy is aware of the problem with our Leafs here in Phoenix and was doing extra testing, so hopefully Nissan is sweating (at least as much as I do when I plug in my car every day). Look forward to hearing the response you get from your dealer.

 

[surfingslovak]

Good luck. Just read about the new Chevy Spark and it mentioned that Chevy is aware of the problem with our Leafs here in Phoenix and was doing extra testing, so hopefully Nissan is sweating (at least as much as I do when I plug in my car every day). Look forward to hearing the response you get from your dealer.

James, did you mean this article?

 

[vrwl]

Good luck. Just read about the new Chevy Spark and it mentioned that Chevy is aware of the problem with our Leafs here in Phoenix and was doing extra testing, so hopefully Nissan is sweating (at least as much as I do when I plug in my car every day). Look forward to hearing the response you get from your dealer.

James, did you mean this article?

One measly 350 mile test in the heat? That's it?

 

[TickTock]

Lost my 2nd bar this morning. July 10,2012. 15.9K miles/13 months ownership.

1. Azdre & Opossum - April 26, 2012. 16.6K miles/13 months ownership. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/14/2012 @~19K miles)
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/7/2012)
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix [Edit by TickTock](2nd bar loss reported 7/10/1012)
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix (sold that Leaf, replaced w/leased '12 Leaf)
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas (no longer has Leaf)
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix
20. Leafwing - July 05, 2012, 13.5K/15 months, Plano, TX.
21. GerryAZ - July 05, 2012, ?/?, Phoenix
22. ecoobsessive - July 6, 2012, 13K/13 months, San Antonio, TX
23. jhm614 - May 15, 2012, 25K/14.5 months, Arlington, TX (2nd bar loss reported on 7/7/2012)
24. DarkDave - June 15, 2012. 8.5K/14.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum reported knowing of another car in Phoenix that has lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix (supposedly no longer has Leaf)

 

[SanDust]

One measly 350 mile test in the heat? That's it?

With tweets all over the place this is really a publicity tour not an engineering test. Are they even selling the Spark EV in Arizona? I thought the only market was California. If they do sell them in AZ it will be interesting since it will give a good comparison of how effective a TMS is.

Anyway, they've been doing accelerated testing of the A123 batteries since 2007 so they no doubt have a good idea of how they'll behave in just about all conditions.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Lost my 2nd bar this morning. July 10,2012. 15.9K miles/13 months ownership.

Sorry to hear that. Looks like first bar will go at 225 and second at 214.
I watched discussion with Goshen recorded in NYC on June 12, 2012,he said that he care so much about us, so we will see. Plans for sale and production not that bold as before. He said that they aim 50K sold worldwide in 2015. Wonder if Smyrna will really start Leaf end of this year, and I am not really optimistic about changes to 2013 - demand is a key. Nissan is not going to target general audience but target group that is interested in buying EV but not much specific what that group is.

 

[vrwl]

Added to the Wiki

Lost my 2nd bar this morning. July 10,2012. 15.9K miles/13 months ownership.

1. Azdre & Opossum - April 26, 2012. 16.6K miles/13 months ownership. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/14/2012 @~19K miles)
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/7/2012)
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix [Edit by TickTock](2nd bar loss reported 7/10/1012)
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix (sold that Leaf, replaced w/leased '12 Leaf)
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas (no longer has Leaf)
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix
20. Leafwing - July 05, 2012, 13.5K/15 months, Plano, TX.
21. GerryAZ - July 05, 2012, ?/?, Phoenix
22. ecoobsessive - July 6, 2012, 13K/13 months, San Antonio, TX
23. jhm614 - May 15, 2012, 25K/14.5 months, Arlington, TX (2nd bar loss reported on 7/7/2012)
24. DarkDave - June 15, 2012. 8.5K/14.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum reported knowing of another car in Phoenix that has lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix (supposedly no longer has Leaf)

 

[vrwl]

... Anyway, they've been doing accelerated testing of the A123 batteries since 2007 so they no doubt have a good idea of how they'll behave in just about all conditions.

LOL, they said that about the LEAF batteries too.

 

[SanDust]

100% = 394V which is about 4.1V/cell
80% = 389V which is about 4.05V/cell

Not much different, but cell voltage is pretty flat until you get above "100%" charge which is probably one reason Nissan stops charging there.

Also keep in mind that the lithium chemistry Nissan uses has higher voltage than others so one can't compare voltages directly.

I would have expected a much larger difference between the 80% and 100% charges. I agree that it doesn't seem much different.

As you say, a different chemistry gives you different results. I believe the A123 cells used in power tools have a maximum recommended charging voltage of 3.6v (3.45 float).

Because of the limited range I really don't see how it matters whether there's an indicator or not.
...
A 20% hit is something that gets noticed - be it mileage, paycheck, or milkshakes :lol:

People believe what they want to believe. I've used the example of Tesla owners claiming they have experienced no loss of battery capacity when you know that's not the case. Range is a hard thing to measure over time because it's so impacted by your driving habits. As you learn how the techniques your range may be going up even as your battery capacity is going down. Plus lots of people aren't pushing the range so they'd never have a range benchmark to use.

I have no doubt that if the loss of a capacity bar wasn't staring them in the face a very high percentage of people with a lost bar would be convinced that there battery was just as good as the day it arrived and would be perfectly happy in their ignorance. With the capacity indicator they don't have that option.

 

[HXGuy]

Lost my 2nd bar this morning. July 10,2012. 15.9K miles/13 months ownership.

Only 1,900 miles and less than 2 months since losing the first bar? That's crazy.

 

[SanDust]

LOL, they said that about the LEAF batteries too.

Ha ha. Years ago there was a Gary Larson cartoon about "What you say" and "What your dog hears". Needless to say they weren't the same! I have the impression that something like this happens with Nissan. We have "What the engineers say" and "What the marketing people hear". It's very likely the Nissan engineers expected what is happening to happen. The questions are more whether the Nissan marketing people heard what they were saying or, having heard it, they decided not to share it.

One other possible difference is that while Nissan is essentially testing its own batteries GM is testing other people's batteries. It's always easier to test someone else's product because you don't have any skin in the outcome. This invariably influences the test results. (Why you always want double blind drug studies). A rosy scenario test result would be more likely to come from Nissan testing Nissan batteries than GM testing A123 or LG Chem cells.

 

[surfingslovak]

I watched discussion with Goshen recorded in NYC on June 12, 2012.

Richard, could you please post the link to that interview?

 

[EdmondLeaf]

George, That was yesterday on CSPAN about 10pm CST. This was hosted by WSJ small clip from this is here,http://on.aol.com/video/carlos-goshen-on-government-investment-in-the-electric-car-517393926 hopefully you will be able to find all which I think was longer than 1 h.

 

[vrwl]

LOL, they said that about the LEAF batteries too.

Ha ha. Years ago there was a Gary Larson cartoon about "What you say" and "What your dog hears". Needless to say they weren't the same!

Wasn't that the one that shows the dog hearing "Blah, blah, blah, blah, Ginger"? I used to have a dog named Ginger and we had a print of that comic on the refrigerator. Sorry to hijack the thread...

 

[tbleakne]

I've read a lot of posts where folks want thermal management, a.k.a. battery cooling. I'm not so sure. I recall that the Tesla Roadster used close to a kilowatt of power when plugged-in in order to cool the battery pack. My car also sits out in the sun at work unplugged for half a day. I wouldn't want the pack sucked dry in order to keep it cool.

My preference would be if a new battery chemistry could be developed that is less sensitive to heat (and cold). As it is I'm pretty impressed at how little heat the current battery generates. Has anyone heard about any such chemistry that has at least reached the lab testing stage?

Since Teslas have a much larger battery pack, they can sustain a 1 kW drain without hookup much longer than we can. For our LEAFs, wouldn't you like to have the option of turning on some thermal management if it is hot and if you are fortunate enough to have a L1 available? I want to cool my battery pack in my garage, because I believe keeping the pack cool even part of a 24-hr day will help. I don't believe the cost of basic thermal management need be excessive. Perhaps I am wrong on both counts. My understanding is most EVs with thermal management, whatever their battery size, stop their active cooling if the battery drains down to 50% SOC, where the battery is least sensitive to heat.

Certainly a better battery chemistry would be the ideal. There is a lot of money being spent, but progress seems to be gradual. It is a complex tradeoff between power density, energy density, cycle life, temperature sensitivity, cost, etc.

 

[DaveEV]

Lost my 2nd bar this morning. July 10,2012. 15.9K miles/13 months ownership.

Sorry to hear that. Looks like first bar will go at 225 and second at 214.

Quite a big jump in GIDs between bars - 56 GIDs to lose the first bar and only 11 to lose the 2nd - no wonder the 2nd bar is going so much quicker.

... Anyway, they've been doing accelerated testing of the A123 batteries since 2007 so they no doubt have a good idea of how they'll behave in just about all conditions.

LOL, they said that about the LEAF batteries too.

I know you said that in jest, but LiFe batteries are among the best in terms of durability, but they do give up energy density in comparison to the LiMn batteries that the LEAF uses.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since Teslas have a much larger battery pack, they can sustain a 1 kW drain without hookup much longer than we can. For our LEAFs, wouldn't you like to have the option of turning on some thermal management if it is hot and if you are fortunate enough to have a L1 available? I want to cool my battery pack in my garage, because I believe keeping the pack cool even part of a 24-hr day will help.

Definitely - certainly Volt owners don't seem to be reporting huge losses in EV range - at least nothing disproportionate to having to run the AC to cool the cabin enough to be comfortable.

 

[tbleakne]

And I also believe in the tooth fairy... :lol:

I guess he needed to qualify that with "depending on where you live..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DShtvd5jJHQ#!
1:05 I trust what Mark Perry said, 70-80% capacity left after 10 years. He is the Leaf guy

I viewed this video with dismay. I would like to think that at the time Mark Perry gave this interview, he was still misinformed, and he actually believed what he is saying about "30% capacity loss over 10 years", and short of driving in Death Valley in August, we need not be concerned about excessive heat.

I could well be naive about him, and I don't consider myself a particularly good judge of character.

Last December, I personally spoke to Mark Perry at the Google BayLeafs meeting. He seemed very intelligent, knowledgeable, and convincing. Not having a clue that early about temperature and capacity loss, I asked him what was the chance that in a few years we might be able to upgrade our 2011-2012 LEAFs with higher capacity battery modules that would fit right in. He replied that he would not rule that out completely, but the likelihood was quite low. I took that as a honest answer.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I guess we all agree that enthusiasts/early adopters phase is finished and it is time to think about regular folks to get them on the EV transportation. We all get Leaf because we wanted this car and knew more about Leaf than our salespeople. We may discuss long and hard usefulness of TMS in our particular cases, but how it sounds to tell regular customer that car have 73 miles EPA range, but that range may drop significantly if you operate Leaf in hot weather and there is no way to regulate battery temp. One have to realize that situation change and now Nissan need to convince people why they should buy Leaf compering to close competitor which is Volt (like it or not). I will go and check Volt - sophisticated TMS is there. Hope Nissan is working hard to fix this

 

[surfingslovak]

George, That was yesterday on CSPAN about 10pm CST. This was hosted by WSJ small clip from this is here,http://on.aol.com/video/carlos-goshen-on-government-investment-in-the-electric-car-517393926 hopefully you will be able to find all which I think was longer than 1 h.

Thank you, Richard. Found it, well worth watching:

Click to open

 

[padamson1]

I guess we all agree that enthusiasts/early adopters phase is finished and it is time to think about regular folks to get them on the EV transportation. We all get Leaf because we wanted this car and knew more about Leaf than our salespeople. We may discuss long and hard usefulness of TMS in our particular cases, but how it sounds to tell regular customer that car have 73 miles EPA range, but that range may drop significantly if you operate Leaf in hot weather and there is no way to regulate battery temp. One have to realize that situation change and now Nissan need to convince people why they should buy Leaf compering to close competitor which is Volt (like it or not). I will go and check Volt - sophisticated TMS is there. Hope Nissan is working hard to fix this

I think the FFE, which like the Volt has battery TMS, is the real head-to-head competitor for the LEAF.

The Volt is for a different target customer: someone with range anxiety, requires a complete ICE replacement, doesn't care about occasionally polluting, or is willing to pay a little more for flexibility when it comes to range.