Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[smkettner]

Nissan has acknowledged the issue. Just because the answer is not what you want does not mean Nissan or Carlos is uninformed or doing a poor job. A letter does nothing really. There just is not going to be a massive buy back, retrofit or free batteries. It is unfortunate that it would appear heat has had a larger effect than expected. If there was any adjustment I would speculate it would be closer to the 3 to 5 year mark not now. Nissan knows exactly what they are doing. JMHO.

 

[mkjayakumar]

It is unfortunate that it would appear heat has had a larger effect than expected.

Unfortunate? It would appear?

For someone in AZ who has paid $35K for a car that is practically useless in three years, would you term that 'unfortunate' ? I would say poor engineering.

George: In your case, the car works exactly as Nissan told it would and you haven't seen any degradation (I presume). On the resale value, I don't understand how a Leaf thats been driven in the Northwest or Bay area would depreciate due to the heat issues that AZ and TX owners are facing ? Its not that a Leaf from Phoenix is going to be driven to Seattle and sold there and vice versa. If I were looking for a used Leaf, I would look at the history of the car on where it was registered last, and make my decision.

 

[dhanson865]

George: In your case, the car works exactly as Nissan told it would and you haven't seen any degradation (I presume). On the resale value, I don't understand how a Leaf thats been driven in the Northwest or Bay area would depreciate due to the heat issues that AZ and TX owners are facing ? Its not that a Leaf from Phoenix is going to be driven to Seattle and sold there and vice versa. If I were looking for a used Leaf, I would look at the history of the car on where it was registered last, and make my decision.

Because before this they (the average non-technical Joe that might buy a car) thought the Nissan Leaf was a car that magically worked the same for years at a time with little or no maintenance.

Now they still aren't any more informed about the actual workings of the car but they have fear, uncertainty, doubt (FUD) implanted in their mind so they don't want a Nissan Leaf.

Myself I would happily buy a range reduced leaf if it was cheap enough but that doesn't help the original buyer who is worried about resale value. To me the Leaf is just as valuable with a GID in the 70% range as it was with a GID in the 90% range but I can't afford a new Leaf so I wouldn't be buying one until they are competitive with all the used 2nd gen Prius rolling around on the used car market.

My current commute is 16 miles each way with a parking spot at the front of the lot right by the door that has AC outlets for L1 charging. I could easily use a leaf that had a range of only 40 miles and not be inconvenienced.

So personally I want the resale value of a leaf to drop, but I also want the leaf to be as reliable as a Toyota Prius. If it is reliable the cheaper the better for me, early adopters might not like a big price drop but there are no guarantees in a free market as to the long term value of a used vehicle.

 

[RickS]

And let the thread go wild... I got my 12th bar back.

I took the car in to the dealer this morning and dropped it off. It was about half charged when I dropped it off and picked it up four hours later nearly fully charged. I got the normal battery report card, all five stars this time and all 12 bars on it which I found strange thinking that it did not correlate to the 11 bars shown on the dash. I went and unplugged the car, it was still charging but all 12 bars were light up and showing 100 miles range, which it hadn't shown in quite a while. I didn't realize it at first, but my 12th bar was back!

I'm not jumping for joy yet. I'm relatively confident all they did was reset the BMS data because after a few miles it started jumping around between 60 and 90 miles. On the way home I set the charge timer so it was on 80% and on the dash I saw 10/12 bars with 10 minutes required to charge on 120 or 240 so I suspect that when I charge to 80% tonight it will be at 10 of 12 bars for the first time in a while.

I'll keep everyone posted on what happens. I'm going to try and get to the special scan gauge that is floating around here to read the full charge %.

 

[RegGuheert]

And let the thread go wild... I got my 12th bar back.

I predicted in the other thread that somebody would reset the BMS to hide LEAF battery degradation, but I wasn't suggesting or imagining that Nissan might do it. Hopefully this is not their official response to this issue.

 

[HXGuy]

And let the thread go wild... I got my 12th bar back.

Whoa. Would have been good to get a GID reading before going in so you could compare but even if you can get a GID reading now, and charge to 100%, it should tell you if you really did get capacity back or if they are just adjusting what the display shows to calm the masses.

 

[jspearman]

It's a miracle! Most likely a miracle of science, but I guess there can only be two explanations. Either they are slipping in there and replacing cells, which seems unlikely for a routine visit. How long were you there? Or they were fiddling with software in what would equate to playing with the odometer.

All I have to say is that if I visit the dealer for my 12-month inspection and find all my bars back, then I am immediately offering this miracle car back to them at 12-bar price and leasing a new Leaf.

 

[HXGuy]

It's a miracle! Most likely a miracle of science, but I guess there can only be two explanations. Either they are slipping in there and replacing cells, which seems unlikely for a routine visit. How long were you there? Or they were fiddling with software in what would equate to playing with the odometer.

All I have to say is that if I visit the dealer for my 12-month inspection and find all my bars back, then I am immediately offering this miracle car back to them at 12-bar price and leasing a new Leaf.

Sounds like it was there for 4 hours, probably not enough to change out any cells...unless it's a quick process? I have no idea.

 

[thankyouOB]

you guys are out there with those conspiracy theories.
reset the software to make the car LOOK better?

is that a serious suggestion?
i hope you get to the bottom of this because i want to know if i should get a tinfoil hat or be angry.

 

[thankyouOB]

...someone needs to write a letter, open or otherwise, to the head of Nissan North America if not Carlos Ghosn himself. I'd started writing one making the same points as you, that Nissan was destroying all the goodwill (especially from new customers) they'd earned by building the first mass market BEV, as well as the fact that once this info moves from enthusiast forums to the mainstream media, anti-EV bloggers and radio ranters, it won't just be the Leaf or even Nissan that will be engulfed by the fallout - all EVs will suffer, because none of the above or the general public is likely to draw fine distinctions between battery chemistry or cars with/without TMS.

i dont know about the rest, but i would love to see your letter, Guy.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

And let the thread go wild... I got my 12th bar back.

Wonder if you can do a test for us. Charge your car to 100% and do EPA 73 mile test (3.7 mkWh), if your car able to do that, than your 12 bar is really back and I will be very happy person and you even happier.

 

[SanDust]

And let the thread go wild... I got my 12th bar back.

Yeah!

Capacity losses aren't reversible. The loss of a bar could, however, just be a measurement issue rather than an actual capacity loss (not to say there wouldn't be some capacity loss, just not a full bar). If you're charging to 80% you might need to charge to 100% a few times to get an accurate measurement. This would be reversible.

Who knows, the fear of losing a bar because of higher temperatures may be leading to an apparent loss of more bars. People are worried about temperature so they only charge to 80%. The true capacity is more difficult if the cells aren't charged to 100%. Consequently the car guesses conservatively and shows a greater loss.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Yes, it's incomprehensible and it's starting to get press more and more.

It's well put here: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/06/nissan-leaf-battery-range-upsets-owners.html

"Given the skepticism that already surrounds these vehicles, any question about quality seems like something the automaker would be wise to address quickly and quietly. If people were to start believing that Nissan sells EVs with unreliable batteries, it would hurt sales for the Leaf and probably EVs across the board."

as for writing a letter, I figure that everything written here is pretty much an open letter to Nissan... they definitely monitor this site.

I'm definitely torn. I like the Leaf in many ways, I've only owned the current one for a matter of months. it feels excessive to flip it so soon and it will cost me. the thing that is pulling at us now is that the Tesla S has so much more range and TMS, we could sell the Leaf and the hybrid and come close to the cost of the S and be driving almost entirely gas free and in some serious style! With the S we could use it for 99% of our driving, even long road trips and have a second used ICE for the little around town runs and probably only rack up a few thousand gas miles a year on it. As much as I hate the idea of turning back to owning a pure ICE for a while, the overall equation would result in fewer combustion miles and we could wait it out for another decent EV to come.

do we hold on and weather the storm or cut and run?

If Nissan keeps quiet and consumer confidence continues to slide, I fear we will be left with no other prudent choice but to cut our losses and move on.

<snip>

Nissan has, IMHO, really blown this. depending on how they deal with this going forward, we may never buy another Nissan... it's really quite sad and mind boggling to me. Someone needs to interrupt the board meeting, tap Carlos on the should and whisper "we have a problem" in his ear... the guy is just too smart to let so many years of investment go up in smoke by not standing behind their product.

I find Nissan's behavior so far incomprehensible; it's like watching someone commit suicide in slow motion. George, someone needs to write a letter, open or otherwise, to the head of Nissan North America if not Carlos Ghosn himself. I'd started writing one making the same points as you, that Nissan was destroying all the goodwill (especially from new customers) they'd earned by building the first mass market BEV, as well as the fact that once this info moves from enthusiast forums to the mainstream media, anti-EV bloggers and radio ranters, it won't just be the Leaf or even Nissan that will be engulfed by the fallout - all EVs will suffer, because none of the above or the general public is likely to draw fine distinctions between battery chemistry or cars with/without TMS.

I decided not to write the letter. As I'm an EV enthusiast in general rather than a Leaf owner, I thought it might carry a bit more weight coming from someone who is.

I've been amazed that we haven't been seeing this mentioned outside of 'our' forums, but it's inevitable that it will be, and perhaps until it does Nissan will continue to stonewall. So, if a Leaf owner were to write such a letter, you might include a time limit (August 1st, say). If someone senior from Nissan hasn't got up on his/her hind legs by that point and publicly acknowledged that there is a problem and that, even if Nissan hasn't yet decided how to handle it, they guarantee that will stand behind their cars and their customers, then the letter will be sent to Consumer Reports, car mags and various mainstream media outlets.

George, I happen to think you'd be ideal for this, but there are several others here who are capable, informed enthusiasts who want nothing but the best for the car and Nissan, and don't want to see them throw away everything they've gained. Someone needs to give Nissan a wake-up call, because they seem to be asleep with the plane on auto-pilot; it's just a matter of time before they run out of fuel and crash. If we're lucky, they won't take all other EVs with them.

 

[RickS]

The car was at the dealer for about five hours. I brought it in about half charged and it was almost full when I picked it up so they didn't have any chance to swap anything I'm sure. That and the service receipt specifically said no cells need replacing.

80% charge left it 9 of 12 bars tonight. I'll keep you guys updated. I suppose it is indeed possible it was mis-calculating but I doubt it. I normally charge to 80%, but I know others here in Phoenix who almost always charge to 100% and bars have been lost in both cases.

I'll keep everyone updated.

 

[cwerdna]

as for writing a letter, I figure that everything written here is pretty much an open letter to Nissan... they definitely monitor this site.

I'm definitely torn. I like the Leaf in many ways, I've only owned the current one for a matter of months. it feels excessive to flip it so soon and it will cost me.
...
Tesla S...

From having lived in the Seattle area for ~9 years, IMHO, you're one of the least likely to suffer from accelerated battery degradation due to heat. I wouldn't dump it based upon such concerns. If I lived in AZ or TX, I'd be concerned.

Regarding the Tesla Model S, at this point, I'd be wary about buying their vehicles as I don't know about how long they'll be around. They haven't turned a single profit yet.

And, if you dumped your Leaf now, it'll be awhile until you can get a Model S. I don't recall the order and build sequence but think you'd have to go w/the highest battery capacity to get it this year. Or, at min, you'd have to go w/the air suspension. One of the Priuschat moderators is in line for a Model S but balked at paying for air suspension, so no car for him this year.

Do you know the details? Are you willing to pony up for whatever is required and also wait? Hpw about insurance? My gut feel tells me that insurance on a Model S will be a lot more than a Leaf.

 

[jspearman]

you guys are out there with those conspiracy theories.
reset the software to make the car LOOK better?

is that a serious suggestion?
i hope you get to the bottom of this because i want to know if i should get a tinfoil hat or be angry.

It's a pyramid-shaped hat. Tinfoil is for amateurs.

Rick, thanks for all the info! I'm due for a visit in about a month down at Avondale Nissan.

 

[HXGuy]

Hpw about insurance? My gut feel tells me that insurance on a Model S will be a lot more than a Leaf.

Not necessarily. When we were recently shopping for a Leaf, we got an insurance quote for it. We ended up going with a 2012 Mercedes E350 diesel, a car whose MSRP is $19,000 more than that of the Leaf, and the insurance is actually cheaper per month than what the Leaf insurance would have been. I asked the insurance company why this was and they said the Mercedes is a safer vehicle which factors into the price you pay for insurance.

 

[RegGuheert]

you guys are out there with those conspiracy theories.
reset the software to make the car LOOK better?

is that a serious suggestion?

Yes, it is. It doesn't sound far-fetched to me. In fact I predicted that command would be used to hide capacity losses in the LEAF. I just didn't think it would be done by Nissan.

Here is what I posted about a month back:

One more thought on this: I'm wondering if the LI-ION GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS DATA CLEAR command discussed on page EVC-107 of the Nissan LEAF service manual resets lost capacity bars if it is executed on a car with an older battery.

If so, then I suspect some unscrupulous sellers will reset that just as some do with odometers today. The manual says it is only to be executed in the case of the installation of a new battery or a new battery controller, but that won't stop some people.

As you can see, Nissan has provided a command which does just what RickS is observing. It seems either the dealer has decided they don't want to put up with the capacity-bar discussions anymore or Nissan has instructed them to execute this command at the annual checkups.

What will be interesting to see is whether the capacity loss data which was cleared is relative to the battery in the car at the time the data is cleared or relative to some absolute standard for capacity. If the former, then I would expect RickS will not lose the top bar for another year or so. If the latter, then it should disappear again soon. If it is the latter case, that is good and no harm, no foul.

I do find it odd, however, that they would reset that BEFORE running the battery report. That just seems disingenuous to me. More importantly, this practice corrupts the battery degradation data being fed back to Nissan.

 

[TickTock]

I would submit that resetting the BMS is/will-be a fairly common practice (not any deliberate attempt to obfuscate the degradation). When I first brought my Leaf in (thinking I was the only one not getting the expected range/gids) they kept it for a week trying to figure out what was going on and one of the things they tried was resetting the BMS. I still had all 12 bars at that point so I really didn't notice anything but I suspect this will not be an uncommon observation as more people take their car in in an attempt to address the degradation.

 

[nogajim]

And let the thread go wild... I got my 12th bar back.

<snip>
I'm not jumping for joy yet. I'm relatively confident all they did was reset the BMS data because after a few miles it started jumping around between 60 and 90 miles. On the way home I set the charge timer so it was on 80% and on the dash I saw 10/12 bars with 10 minutes required to charge on 120 or 240 so I suspect that when I charge to 80% tonight it will be at 10 of 12 bars for the first time in a while.

I'll keep everyone posted on what happens. I'm going to try and get to the special scan gauge that is floating around here to read the full charge %.

I had my checkup 3 weeks ago in Georgia. The GOM acted goofy afterwards until I charged and drove it a bit. I think what you saw sounds similar, so that by itself wouldn't mean they reset it. Maybe it was cooler when the charged it?