Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[mksE55]

Just wanted you all to know that while speaking with a Nissan corporate representative today, I was told that
a 20% capacity loss in a year is considered NORMAL by Nissan.

Was this somone at the 877-NO-GAS-EV (i.e., a paid flunky) or someone higher up in the company? If higher up, do you have a name? Is this part of their legal strategy, or someone just making stuff up on the fly? This would be a good time for Jeff to chime in and let us know if this is now the official corporate line or some renegade who needs to be taken out behind the woodshed.

SAD, SAD, sounding more and more like its going to be a feeding frenzy with lawyers all over Nissan,s back. Withholding information, changing crucial mileage figures, misleading mileage figures to sell the car.

 

[vrwl]

And yet the 100 miles per charge figure is still being promoted everywhere.... http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012...leaf-discounts-to-spur-sales/?intcmp=features

The Leaf, which can go up to 100 miles on battery power from a single charge, starts at $36,050, including shipping.

 

[DaveEV]

Just wanted you all to know that while speaking with a Nissan corporate representative today, I was told that
a 20% capacity loss in a year is considered NORMAL by Nissan.

Well, you know there probably should be a bunch of qualifiers attached to that statement.

20% after a year in Seattle? Perhaps if you drive around 120k miles in that year.
20% after a year in Los Angeles? Perhaps if you drive around 60k miles in that year.
20% after a year in Phoenix? Perhaps if you drive around 20k miles in that year.

(Numbers above are very rough ballpark figures and not to be taken literally)

 

[TonyWilliams]

Come on, guys, there's nothing to see here. All degradation is normal, as long as the car has normal power to accelerate. This isn't new.

I'll bet the Nissan rep was asked if 20% was normal. Of course it is. So is 30%, 40%, or any other number you dream up. It doesn't matter where it is; South Pole or Death Valley. What also hasn't changed is the warranty that lacks capacity coverage.

So, please don't get your undergarments bunched up over this. Nothing changed, and the reps have to say the company line, again, that is unchanged. The fact that one, and many more future lawsuits are on the horizon suggests that they absolutely must keep to the script.

The best pieces of the puzzle are the NEW information we've gleaned. The 7500 mile Nissan-LEAF-Year(TM) that was previously undisclosed, but that Nissan knew while they sold you cars is HUGE. The undisclosed less than four calendar year End Of Life battery in Arizona with normal 12,000 mile driving... Again, HUGE.

The fact that they don't cover the battery for capacity doesn't mean they get to lie through omission, or in statement (5 years / 80%, when that's not even close to what they forecast for Phoenix). Nissan is going to get slaughtered with these suits.

The "bad battery cooling" suit, eh, not so sure. Those guys clearly don't even know what they're talking about.

 

[theaveng]

Telsa is stating that they expect 70% capacity at 7 years but that the batteries are actually designed to have 70% well past 200k miles.

200k miles is 26.6 Nissan-LEAF-Years(TM) !!!

If Lithium batteries have an expected 30% loss in the first two years, followed by "holding steady" at 70% for the remainder of life, then that's what the advertised range should be based upon. Not 73 miles but 70% that value. i.e. 51.

 

[theaveng]

All LEAFs have shown to be 100% capable of delivering 100% of rated power.
All LEAFs will lose capacity (their ability to hold energy) over time dependent on usage.

False statement. There is no way that a battery can lose capacity and still maintain the same voltage output. Eventually the voltage will drop and there will be less horsepower coming-out of the motor.

 

[theaveng]

Finally, the cost of ownership blew any other vehicle out of the water. More on this later.

More please. Hard to see how a Leaf beats..... say, a Civic HF for $17,000 and 43mpg highway. Or a Kia Rio that at ~38mpg and $13,500 cost. Or several other lowpriced options.

 

[surfingslovak]

All LEAFs have shown to be 100% capable of delivering 100% of rated power.
All LEAFs will lose capacity (their ability to hold energy) over time dependent on usage.

False statement. There is no way that a battery can lose capacity and still maintain the same voltage output. Eventually the voltage will drop and there will be less horsepower coming-out of the motor.

What Dave said is correct. The output voltage will stay the same. What changes is the discharge characteristic and internal resistance. The latter will ultimately lead to lower power output, but it might take a while to become noticeable. While all opinions are welcome, please refrain from spamming the thread if possible.

 

[theaveng]

duplicate

 

[theaveng]

While all opinions are welcome, please refrain from spamming the thread if possible

Wow. I am hardly "spamming". I'm not dumping "you may have already won a million dollars" junkmail into the forum or your inbox. This curve shows that battery voltage DROPS as capacity declines: http://batteryuniversity.com/_img/content/final2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[palmermd]

While all opinions are welcome, please refrain from spamming the thread if possible

Wow. I am hardly "spamming". I'm not dumping "you may have already won a million dollars" junkmail into the forum or your inbox. This curve shows that battery voltage DROPS as capacity declines:
http://batteryuniversity.com/_img/content/final2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The curve shows that voltage drops as SOC declines.

SOC and Capacity are not the same thing. A battery with 33AH capacity and one with 20AH capacity can both be at 100% soc and will both have the same voltage.

 

[theaveng]

I went to a couple of the "LEAF tours" before the release, where they touted a 100 mile range, that the car fit the "needs for most Americans because they drive on average 60 miles a day,"

I can't help thinking of Nissan like an Ebay seller. They don't directly lie..... just stretch the truth to the point where they are dishonest.
ME: "I just received my videogame. You said it was like new but it's scratched on the CD."
EBAY Seller: "No I said it was USED like new. Stop complaining."

ME: "I was told the Nissan could handle my 60/day commute. Now the car won't do it and it's only one year old."
NISSAN: "This is normal. Stop complaining."

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

While all opinions are welcome, please refrain from spamming the thread if possible

Wow. I am hardly "spamming". I'm not dumping "you may have already won a million dollars" junkmail into the forum or your inbox. This curve shows that battery voltage DROPS as capacity declines:
http://batteryuniversity.com/_img/content/final2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The curve shows that voltage drops as SOC declines.

SOC and Capacity are not the same thing. A battery with 33AH capacity and one with 20AH capacity can both be at 100% soc and will both have the same voltage.

another thing to consider. if a battery has 20% capacity loss and is fully charged, SOC still equals 100%.

chemistry determines voltage so if you look at a battery as actually being many very small cells bound together with each cell putting out X voltage @ Y SOC. as the capacity degrades we might have 100 less cells but each cell is still at X voltage @ Y SOC.

 

[Nubo]

Just wanted you all to know that while speaking with a Nissan corporate representative today, I was told that
a 20% capacity loss in a year is considered NORMAL by Nissan.

I asked him to repeat this, which he did. I then asked him if he understood what this would do to sales of the LEAF considering that customers were told by Nissan to expect this type of loss after 5 years. He said he didn't expect the loss to continue at that rate. Gee, thanks! $40,000 for a car that goes 45 operative miles on an 80% charge after 1 year.

What in the world is Nissan thinking?

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that there are more than one group in Nissan working at cross-purposes? Or perhaps battling for control?

 

[DaveEV]

All LEAFs have shown to be 100% capable of delivering 100% of rated power.
All LEAFs will lose capacity (their ability to hold energy) over time dependent on usage.

False statement. There is no way that a battery can lose capacity and still maintain the same voltage output. Eventually the voltage will drop and there will be less horsepower coming-out of the motor.

Yes, internal resistance will go up as capacity is lost and thus voltage at the battery terminals will drop as well thanks to Ohm's Law.

But note that I said that the battery will be capable of delivering "100% of rated power". The battery is certainly capable of delivering far more than the ~90kW (3.75C) it's rated for as used in the LEAF. Just look at the Volt, where a very similar battery is rated for 120kW but 7.5C - nearly double the power output on a per kWh basis compared to the LEAF.

If one is looking for a way to expose any loss in power output, the best way would be to take a battery with a lot of capacity loss, then go chill it to freezing temps with a low SOC. Cold battery, old battery, low SOC all add up to increase internal resistance.

Of course - with all that internal resistance, it shouldn't take long for the battery to warm up under use (which will reduce internal resistance) which is why Nissan suggests that only parking the car under extreme cold can be an issue - driving and charging the car under those conditions will typically keep the pack warm enough.

 

[opossum]

It is official. We have a check. Nissan has the lemon.

Well, to be clear, Nissan has the big lemon. We gave the tiny Walmart lemon to Randy.

Randy is still stuck at the collision center as the representatives are scrutinizing every scratch and ding. We didn't have this issue, fortunately.

Here is a link to the KPHO NBC12 story that aired the other night, featuring Randy (WiltingLeaf) and John Noble. I'll add it to the wiki page in a minute...

http://www.azcentral.com/video/1871731977001

Warning: The link above is annoyingly redirecting to a 'top story' video. If it does this to you, hit the 'back' button in your browser and you'll get back to the video.

 

[RegGuheert]

It is official. We have a check. Nissan has the lemon.

Congratulations! Great job making the most of a difficult situation! And thanks to both you and Azdre for educating us about these issues. We've all learned a lot from your experiences, even though we know it was painful for you.

 

[mwalsh]

I do hate that "Lemon" moniker. It's not a Lemon. Does it have problems...almost definitely. But I don't think they are insurmountable with an appropriate Six Sigma implementation and some re-engineering. However, what we still have is a fair amount of denial (whether purposeful or emotional) at the corporate level and less movement towards a meaningful and open dialog than I think a lot of us want. This too shall probably pass (or at least we bloody well hope it does!)

 

[MrIanB]

Oppossum;

Glad you were made whole and can move on.

What are your plans for the next car?

So, with the check in hand, don't know if you bought or leased, are you 100% free and clear from your contract?

They will probably inspect the car, battery, electronics and if nothing wrong, will send to auction for sale again.

Ian B

 

[opossum]

We received a check after they inspected for damage beyond normal wear and tear. No NDA was presented to us. Just a few basic forms to transfer title and things of that nature.

Not to go too off-topic, but we just don't know what we're going to do next (besides following the ongoing Leaf fiasco). We have been fighting Nissan and pool contractors too much to have time to evaluate our car options. Another EV? Used, interim car until there are more EV options in a year or two? Another hybrid? Volt? Te$la? We'll probably spend at least a week or two deciding.

Scott's car was supposed to go to Casa Grande. We'll see if we can track our car and/or Randy's. The guy at the collision center says he had no idea where Nissan would be taking it when they picked it up.