Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[TonyWilliams]

Many LEAF owners are posting (and apparently, believing) battery capacity junk data.... range tests with uncontrolled known variables limiting the accuracy of the data, as was the result of the Phoenix range test attempt.

Yep, at least you're consistent with your diatribes. And making more friends here, I see.

 

[Stoaty]

Many LEAF owners are posting (and apparently, believing) battery capacity junk data.... range tests with uncontrolled known variables limiting the accuracy of the data, as was the result of the Phoenix range test attempt.

Yep, at least you're consistent with your diatribes. And making more friends here, I see.

Don't forget about the Friends and Foes lists Tony. Works for me.

 

[surfingslovak]

Don't forget about the Friends and Foes lists Tony. Works for me.

Yes, but then someone will quote your foe, and you might inadvertently see a comment you did not want to read. I love how Ed describes the Phoenix event as an attempt at a range test. While there is always room for improvement, and I personally found some of the criticism motivating, this sort of rhetoric is rather strage. Especially when it comes from someone who has never produced anything of substance for this community.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Don't forget about the Friends and Foes lists Tony. Works for me.

Yes, but then someone will quote your foe, and you might inadvertently see a comment you did not want to read. I love how Ed describes the Phoenix event as an attempt at a range test. While there is always room for improvement, and I personally found some of the criticism motivating, this sort of rhetoric is rather strange. Especially when it comes from someone who has never produced anything of substance for this community.

Reminds me of Truman and the "Know nothing, do nothing" congress.

The good news is there are only a very few like Ed. It sure would be easier to just outright ban the flame throwers like Ed, than have to be constantly reminded that there are people out there like him.

 

[GerryAZ]

There are clearly instrumentation accuracy issues with the Leaf so the two most reliable methods of measuring battery capacity loss are 1) a range test at constant speed all the way to turtle or shutdown and 2) measuring charging energy at the wall to charge from turtle or shutdown to 100% charge. LBW and VLBW seem to be moving targets--more and more range is available after these alarms as time goes on and odometer readings increase.

It is disappointing to read disparaging remarks about the Phoenix range test. The folks who organized this test (especially Tony, the test coordinator) put a lot of effort into making the tests consistent between vehicles and into gathering meaningful data from each vehicle. As one who participated in the test (not involved with the planning), I want to express my appreciation for their efforts. I believe the test results are valid and I don't see a way to gather more accurate data without having access to the positive and negative battery terminals and using laboratory-grade instruments during a range test.

Gerry

 

[spooka]

LBW and VLBW seem to be moving targets--more and more range is available after these alarms as time goes on and odometer readings increase.

It was my impression that GID readings were solid for LBW and VLBW and that these alarms were good indicators of actual range remaining. I don't own a GID meter so some help is appreciated if anyone can help me understand. Would this mean that a GID of 50 at LBW with a new Leaf could be (as an example) 55 at LBW after a year of driving? Or would it mean that the GID meter reads 50 both when new and at a year out but misreads the Leaf "hiding" the extra range available after LBW? Or is this only a LBW Leaf issue that has nothing to do with a GID meter? If the latter, I would think the GID meter would catch/explain the discrepancy.

 

[surfingslovak]

LBW and VLBW seem to be moving targets--more and more range is available after these alarms as time goes on and odometer readings increase.

It was my impression that GID readings were solid for LBW and VLBW and that these alarms were good indicators of actual range remaining. I don't own a GID meter so some help is appreciated if anyone can help me understand. Would this mean that a GID of 50 at LBW with a new Leaf could be (as an example) 55 at LBW after a year of driving? Or would it mean that the GID meter reads 50 both when new and at a year out but misreads the Leaf "hiding" the extra range available after LBW? Or is this only a LBW Leaf issue that has nothing to do with a GID meter? If the latter, I would think the GID meter would catch/explain the discrepancy.

Paul, I drove Randy's Leaf during the test, and I was under the impression that although LBW and VLBW appeared at their customary Gid thresholds, the battery would hold more energy, and Gids declined more slowly in the bottom 30% SOC portion. Drea and Mason made a similar observation in their Leaf, and I believe there were others.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i will 2nd that. i have nothing but a TON of evidence that leads either nowhere, everywhere or to dimensions unknown.

when i first got my SOC meter i tracked how GIDs came and went and could discern no real pattern. sometimes i would go thru 6 GID in a mile other times it was 2 GIDs and ya, uphill downhill all matters but these measurements were generally pretty inconsistent no matter how you sliced it.

a rough rule of thumb says a mile should burn roughly 3.25 GIDs (divide the GIDs from full 281 to turtle 8 makes 273 /84 is how i got that figure)

now that is the "STP" or standard temperature (mid 70's) and pressure (on accelerator pedal)

well, no one...or i should say, "I" dont drive that way because i cant. we have too many people too few roads, etc.

so i took the GIDs used on trip that is currently repeated 4 times a week of about 64 miles mostly freeway. it used anywhere from 181 to 241 GID. big range but seasonal but the range in Summer was 181 to 210 (still pretty large especially when you consider that the 30 GID difference is 9+ mile chunk of range...) Winter was worse (more temp variation) at 199 to 241...

but i will say that the meter does extend the range because it allows me to "see the bottom"

 

[mark1313]

I kind of got slammed @ the dealership tonight..I went to the dealership to make my battery check appointment and was told its once a year not every 7500 miles like I was originally told...
I decided to ask the guy if he saw all the negative news coverage on the Leaf and if the dealership even sold the car there any more,he said he saw one coverage and yes the dealership sold 3 cars,one to him..
They were all leases to 3 of the employees working there including him...
I ask him if he knew about the buy back of Leafs by Nissan and he said those cars all had 30000+ miles on them with a lot of wear and tear to the car :lol:
I told him that I contacted Nissan over my 25% battery capacity and 2+ bar loss,he said those 2 bars do not mean you loss 25 % battery capacity...I replied to him that I have gone from a 130 miles to slightly less to 100 miles per charge, but still avg. 6.1/KWH,he replied that he gets 60 miles per charge and that my battery must be in great shape to get that kind of miles :shock:... I ask if him if that was all freeway miles and he said yes,I told him i could not even get to work and back now if I used the freeway for 60 miles.. That would take me from 6.1 M/kw to 2.5 M/kw..
He also told me that they were helping one owner out with a battery capacity loss :lol: All of sudden I remember 5 pages back in this discussion the owner saying he was having problems with this dealership and he was getting the run around with them...
The postive that I get from my visit to Nissan is,Nissan employees are now driving the Leafs,so they also will feel loss of battery capacity in another year,that freeway driving the Nissan guy currently drives may turn into a slow routine on city streets in anther year..

 

[cwerdna]

I kind of got slammed @ the dealership tonight..
...
They were all leases to 3 of the employees working there including him...
...

The postive that I get from my visit to Nissan is,Nissan employees are now driving the Leafs,so they also will feel loss of battery capacity in another year,that freeway driving the Nissan guy currently drives may turn into a slow routine on city streets in anther year..

I don't think those dealership employees work for Nissan and are on Nissan's payroll. I think they're just employees of the dealer.

From what I understand, there are franchise laws set up to prevent automakers from setting up their own company stores (in competition w/independently owned franchises). Google for franchise laws tesla own dealerships to see what I'm talking about.

It'll be interesting to see what happens a year or two from now when those dealer employees hit noticeable capacity loss...

 

[kmp647]

speaking from experience, people in the dealerships who own the products they sell rarely get any extra help

if anything they will be shunned if they express dis satisfaction with the product

ignored or made to fell like a trader

 

[turbo2ltr]

funny thing about regaining lost GID... that seems to be common but what isnt (at least not yet) is gaining back lost range

I don't have hard numbers but I'm certain I got range back. I can make trips I had a hard time doing in the summer (but use to be able to do fine), with ease once again.

 

[RegGuheert]

The postive that I get from my visit to Nissan is,Nissan employees are now driving the Leafs,so they also will feel loss of battery capacity in another year,that freeway driving the Nissan guy currently drives may turn into a slow routine on city streets in anther year..

Three employees at my dealership picked up LEAFs in August. They got excellent deals on 2-year leases. Here they will have no problems. Out there, it will depend on how far they have to drive to get to work.

 

[RegGuheert]

I don't have hard numbers but I'm certain I got range back. I can make trips I had a hard time doing in the summer (but use to be able to do fine), with ease once again.

That's very good to hear! With data like you are getting we should eventually get an idea of what is real loss and what is loss that will recover.

 

[TickTock]

It appears I may be seeing a slight increase in my range on a 100% charge, too. However, it is small enough that the fact I no longer have the AC running could explain it. The 74 high out-lyer is the 64mph constant speed test drive I did with Tony. The low 55 value was at my lowest efficiency ever (3.9mpkWh).

 

[TonyWilliams]

It appears I may be seeing a slight increase in my range on a 100% charge, too. However, it is small enough that the fact I no longer have the AC running could explain it. The 74 high out-lyer is the 64mph constant speed test drive I did with Tony >>>without air conditioning!!!<<<. The low 55 value was at my lowest efficiency ever (3.9mpkWh).

Certainly, air conditioning is a big part of the equation in your neighborhood !! The fact that your current range more closely matches our Sept 15 test merely coincides with a/c use.

 

[kmp647]

i took deliver 11/11/11 and have 14,900 miles

As far as i am concerned my range loss has shown itself now that temps are in the30/40s

still have 12 bars , but my cold weather range seems lower than last winter

guess 15k miles and some summer heat, most of summer on 6 bars and a day or two at 7 temp bars does that to a battery

 

[klapauzius]

funny thing about regaining lost GID... that seems to be common but what isnt (at least not yet) is gaining back lost range

I don't have hard numbers but I'm certain I got range back. I can make trips I had a hard time doing in the summer (but use to be able to do fine), with ease once again.

The only irritating thing about this is: why this did not show up last summer? Or did we miss this back then, because of all the excitement?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It did show up last summer but the l large 15% on three first capacity bar and our unfamiliarity with the Leaf s range is why we didn't notice

 

[TickTock]

We did notice it (I mentioned it here) but at the time was more concerned with why I was the only person with less than 281 gids . I thought my Leaf was an anomaly at the time. Looking back at last year, I see an up-tic in the range last October, too. Unfortunately, I got sloppy with my data logging though the spring so there is a gap.