Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[spooka]

Volusiano, I requested a buy back option and they said the same thing, I will hear back in 7-10 days. That was about four months ago.

Did either you or Volusiano file a BBB Lemon Law complaint? It doesn't sound like it and if not, you must and when you do there will be time frames that you and Nissan will have to meet (neither you or Nissan will be able to drag it out). Nissan has no official stance on supposed/imaginary Leaf problems, they are all on a delay by delay basis when dealing without BBB arbitration. The BBB will speed up (in reality it just forces their hand) as Nissan will do nothing for you without a cattle prod. Remember, I did not have the media exposure/hype that the AZ people had and yet was able to use it to my advantage as the only person to get a buy-back outside of AZ (I believe at the time) even after being denied arbitration.

Words of wisdom.

 

[edatoakrun]

Yeah, I would have expected to see a seasonality in the reverse of what we see on the gids (lower capacity in winter). The gids behavior at first seems like it may be an attempt to compensate for temperature variability, however the fact that the 100% pack volts doesn't change with season (394 V) means no compensation is occurring - pack is being charged to a fixed voltage year round. So the only explanation I can think of for my lack of seasonality is it just doesn't get cold enough in Phoenix for me to see this cold weather effect on capacity.

What sort of battery temperature-while-charging reductions do you think your LEAF has experienced since last summer?

What I don't understand is this:

You show a relatively large variation in the calculated charge, "0 to 100 wall" of 18.52 kWh to 19.83 kWh (~7%) over just the last ten days you have reported.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7gtcYL2Oy0dHNwVmRkNkFnaEVOQTVENW5mOTZlb0E&pli=1#gid=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the voltage levels are relatively consistent (392.5 to 394 V) at your "100%" charge level, why is there so much variation (and it looks like no strong correspondence to the voltage levels) in the kWh "from the wall" numbers? I thought I understood (from the expertise of others) that voltage variations that small at that voltage indicated fairly small variations in the "100%" level of total battery capacity. So if the voltage reports are accurate, and the kWh calculations are also accurate, they should be fairly close, shouldn't they?

If you are positive the battery voltage numbers are accurate indicators of capacity, what are the other factors you think could be causing the variable results? Do you use gid counts or voltage readings to indicate the battery level before you charge, in calculating your "0 to 100 wall" kWh?

I have been hopeful that recharge calculations could provide more consistent and accurate indications of battery capacity than range tests have, the biggest advantage being the ability to easily collect much more data.

However, some who have run repeated range tests (myself included) may have seen somewhat more consistent (albeit far fewer) capacity results.

 

[Ingineer]

FYI: All battery chemistries have a Voltage/Temperature curve of some kind. You cannot use voltage alone for any kind of SoC calculation without first knowing this curve and applying it. The application part is really hard, as the temperature measurements are usually made externally, and there is a significant amount of delay, error and noise. This is why all modern EV battery management systems use some form of coulomb counting to maintain SoC measurement.

The Leaf uses coulomb counting as it's primary method with corrections for drift applied only during specific conditions where open circuit voltage is trustworthy. The excessive drift is caused by the use of a low-cost hall-effect current monitoring system.

-Phil

 

[mark1313]

Im not sure how many hypermilers we have here..I know me and Leaf-fan were both always trying to go the distance in what we could get out of the battery packs and I dont mean trying to get down to turtle..

I pretty well memorized my mileage from work and back which was 60 miles,I could easily do this twice with out charging the first year,yup I was a slow driver who timed the lights late @ night..

I noticed the 2nd summer of ownership that something was wrong,I started losing mileage,a lot of miles,25 total...A fews weeks back I noticed a 5 mile jump up in my charged mileage..That is fine but I still worried about whats going to happen this summer with the Leaf..

I did buy the car and I have gone down to the dealership to complain..Its the dealership where they just did a 3 car lease with 3 employees,one of the new owners is the guy who takes car of the Leafs that come in..
When I told him I loss 25 miles and Im now down in 90+ miles per charge,he told me in his new Leaf he only gets 60 miles per charge,he does a lot of freeway driving,so he gave me that look of ,your car is ok..
He also told me all those cars that have bought back all had 30+ k miles on them..
I guess what i really need to do is floor the car evrywhere I go and then look @ my 50 milles per charge and complain again,I just can not get myself to do that tho..
Ill wait out this through the next summer and see what happen in battery capacity..I not sure when all the court cases are going to start against Nissan (Leaf) but once again I wish i could get on the winess stand to explain in how I drove the car as soft as possible(no freeway driving-no AC) when Im the only person in the car and still loss all those miles....I have yet to turn on the heater either and I use to joke with the people @ the dealership that I was going to get 200K miles out of the brakes..

 

[vegastar]

Do you still have the 12 capacity bars?

The capacity bars are the small bars in the right of the charge bars. Here is an example of a car with 3 capacity bars lost:

 

[RegGuheert]

I pretty well memorized my mileage from work and back which was 60 miles,I could easily do this twice with out charging the first year,yup I was a slow driver who timed the lights late @ night..

I think this is one thing that is so insidious about the Phoenix issues: It is hot and flat there, so you guys are able to get much more range out of a new LEAF than the rest of us seem to be able to manage. But that same heat wreaks havoc on the batteries in the LEAF, so the euphoria associated with those massive ranges fades much faster than in other areas.

 

[TickTock]

<snip>I wish i could get on the winess stand to explain in how I drove the car as soft as possible(no freeway driving-no AC) when Im the only person in the car and still loss all those miles....I have yet to turn on the heater either and I use to joke with the people @ the dealership that I was going to get 200K miles out of the brakes..

Your babying the car *did* help - you probably cycle the battery half as many times for the same number of miles as say... me. However, you can't escape the heat and range loss is inevitable - all you can do is delay it.
200k miles on the brakes isn't completely impossible IMO. I expect many will hit 100k (assuming replacement batteries are made available).

 

[Herm]

getting close to the 500th page milestone for this topic

 

[TonyWilliams]

He also told me all those cars that have bought back all had 30+ k miles on them..
.....
Ill wait out this through the next summer and see what happen in battery capacity..I not sure when all the court cases are going to start against Nissan (Leaf) but once again I wish i could get on the winess stand....

Actually, NONE of the cars had 30,000 miles on them. One had 29,000 miles, but it was turned in early on its lease (it was not a buy back). Subsequent to our Phoenix range test (here's the InsideEV.com version), the owner of that car got a reimbursement for the fees paid to Nissan for his early lease termination.

I expect a complete blood bath on the LEAF batteries next summer. But, I also expect a "mandatory" firmware upgrade before next summer that magically makes the battery capacity meter stay happy. Of course, that won't change battery capacity or range.

Since the 2013 (and probably 2014) batteries are the same size and chemistry as 2011-2012, expect the exact same issues in high heat environments as we have witnessed to date.

 

[TomT]

Which is why my next EV will likely not be a Nissan.

Since the 2013 (and probably 2014) batteries are the same size and chemistry as 2011-2012, expect the exact same issues in high heat environments as we have witnessed to date.

 

[vrwl]

Which is why my next EV will likely not be a Nissan.

Since the 2013 (and probably 2014) batteries are the same size and chemistry as 2011-2012, expect the exact same issues in high heat environments as we have witnessed to date.

+1, I'm hoping to get the BMW EV for my next car

 

[theaveng]

I'll pay $15,000 for your used Leaf.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I'll pay $15,000 for your used Leaf.

without waiting this one listed for less than 18K so you may get it for close what you want to pay
http://www.bakernissansouth.com/cer...san-LEAF-9da795500a0d064900aee908da34bf2d.htm

 

[theaveng]

Please explain how you came to this conclusion.

I should have seen this coming when I saw you dig through this entire thread the other day. It's a bit late for revisionist history, let's give it a rest please. http://bit.ly/ticktockgidsgraphlarge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why are you watching what we read? That seems stalkerish.

 

[theaveng]

(I do believe that my 40 page appeal with overwhelming evidence that makes it look like Nissan is trying to cover something up, made Nissan settle so soon).

Where is this posted?
I suspect the Arizona heat killed my insight's battery. It was replaced by Honda after just 25000 miles and 5 years. Of course that's a NiMH not a Li-Ion but neither chemistry likes being overheated. My car will cutback assist to 1/2 if the battery is hot.

 

[Bigboler]

Yes, finally page 500!

 

[cwerdna]

Yes, finally page 500!

And, we're getting close to 5000 replies!

 

[surfingslovak]

Yes, finally page 500!

And, we're getting close to 5000 replies!

Yes, it's time to commemorate. I recently reviewed azdre's first post in this thread, and had to cringe about my initial response to it. Speaking of first responses, here is an exchange I had with someone else on the same topic two weeks later. You have to wonder, why would anyone spend 7 months writing 500 pages and 5,000 posts about nothing? Is this Seinfeld?

However, given the data I have gathered so far, I would expect this to become a larger issue, which could garner additional publicity down the road. This could turn out to be very significant news for the Leaf program.

Is this an issue, or just much ado about nothing? And exactly what is the issue, real or imagined?

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I hope that soon there will be affordable EV that can do 100 or more highway miles, and will retain 80% or more capacity after 100KM.

 

[jspearman]

Do I get to be post 5,000? If so, Is there a prize?

I'm still aggravated. Stinky prize.