Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[cwerdna]

I love it! If you are interested, I used Crazytalk7 on my Mac to make it. There is a windows equivalent also. I'm glad someone liked the vid.

Great video Spooka!
Took me a few minutes to find it, as I've probably only read 300 pages of this epic 617 page thread, so for others here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LMen5Cr1LHA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Am I the only one that finds it morally troubling that Nissan is shipping LEAFs with badly degraded battery packs east, and now it has been sold to an unsuspecting buyer in Bristol, TN for nearly $20,000?
Yes, Nissan has done a few good things. Like paying spooka's and Tony's and others costs associated with the testing that Tony did. Yes, Nissan did the right thing and bought Sonic.

Haha! Funny video. I somehow never caught it when it was posted originally. If it was in this thread, it's sure easy to miss posts...

The voice and tone reminds me of this famous funny iPhone 4 vs. HTC Evo video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. (FWIW, I prefer iPhones and have an iPhone 5. My work also provides us w/phones and I chose a Samsung Galaxy S4 on a different carrier...)

I was speaking with the salesperson who sold Sonic to me a few weeks after I posted the video. She didn't know it was a product of my twisted mind and commented to me what a jerk the person was who made it. I just chuckled inside and changed the topic. Nissan corporate asked me directly during one of our conversations if I was the owner of Sonic.

I guess I got their attention

LOL!

 

[mksE55]

Lost my third bar yesterday morning...at least that's when I noticed it. No big change in the GOM or noticeable change in my range, but I think I'm stuck with 100% charging for the remainder of my lease (11 months).

I doubt you will make it 11 months without a new battery. So the bright side you will get to charge to 80% again. charging to 100% daily was shot thru when my battery went from 2 bar loss to 3 bar loss in just a few months and now following my graph and miles pers bar I am about at 4 bar loss just a few months later as well. I dont get Nissans battery loss curve how can it slow if you have to charge it more often to fuller extents and discharge to lower extents. The fastest way to battery death - 100% to 0% daily and then in TX with Heat. I actually now have to do some mid day charges so I can finish longer trips with out worry. I am following may Amp/hr every few days to see when I hit the 4 bar loss, now I am at 45.3, 193 gids on full charge.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... I am following may Amp/hr every few days to see when I hit the 4 bar loss, now I am at 45.3, 193 gids on full charge.

It's sad that we're so numbed by this, it's not even big news. Oh, another trashed LEAF battery... yep, sounds about right.

I get 68% capacity on both a 45.3 / 66.25 Ah ratio and a 193 / 281 Gid ratio.

 

[spooka]

Am I the only one that finds it morally troubling that Nissan is shipping LEAFs with badly degraded battery packs east, and now it has been sold to an unsuspecting buyer in Bristol, TN for nearly $20,000?

I would be bummed if that happened but I would question why Nissan would bother to send it to TN of all places if they didn't want to have a better look at it. Smyrna would be the logical place to bring it to if you were interested in researching the problem. With the $$ they have invested in the LEAF, they WANT to make the car better so why not run some tests and dissect it? I had been searching steadily for 3 months after the car was taken back by Nissan to see where it ended up by googling the VIN. Nothing ever showed. For this reason, I think they were examining the car during this time to get a better idea of what happened to the battery pack. I have no idea what really happened but if Nissan wanted to resell the car ASAP to cut their losses, it should have appeared for sale much earlier than it did. My car never made it to the initial Casa Grande testing like other LEAFs did. It is my hope that if they tinkered with it, they also replaced cells. If not, the new owner is getting about 60 miles on the GOM and 10 bars or less on a full charge. I wonder if we will ever catch the buyer here on MNL to fill us in. THAT would be interesting.

Now that I think of it, were are coming up on the one year anniversary of Tony's Tempe Twelve test. That will always be a footnote in EV history and a chapter in LEAF history. :mrgreen:

 

[thankyouOB]

I love it! If you are interested, I used Crazytalk7 on my Mac to make it. There is a windows equivalent also. I'm glad someone liked the vid.

Great video Spooka!
Took me a few minutes to find it, as I've probably only read 300 pages of this epic 617 page thread, so for others here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LMen5Cr1LHA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Am I the only one that finds it morally troubling that Nissan is shipping LEAFs with badly degraded battery packs east, and now it has been sold to an unsuspecting buyer in Bristol, TN for nearly $20,000?
Yes, Nissan has done a few good things. Like paying spooka's and Tony's and others costs associated with the testing that Tony did. Yes, Nissan did the right thing and bought Sonic.
But they're doing an awfully lot badly wrong with the only leasing you a replacement battery program that won't start till 2014, and by selling badly degraded LEAFs with no warning to the buyer.
I think Nissan should fire everyone currently involved with the LEAF program, and bring in entirely new people.

i have read through some of this and cant find any sourcing for the story that nissan took an AZ LEAF to TN and resold it without doing any refurbish on the battery.

can someone help me with this?

 

[jspearman]

I love it! If you are interested, I used Crazytalk7 on my Mac to make it. There is a windows equivalent also. I'm glad someone liked the vid.

Great video Spooka!
Took me a few minutes to find it, as I've probably only read 300 pages of this epic 617 page thread, so for others here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LMen5Cr1LHA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Am I the only one that finds it morally troubling that Nissan is shipping LEAFs with badly degraded battery packs east, and now it has been sold to an unsuspecting buyer in Bristol, TN for nearly $20,000?
Yes, Nissan has done a few good things. Like paying spooka's and Tony's and others costs associated with the testing that Tony did. Yes, Nissan did the right thing and bought Sonic.
But they're doing an awfully lot badly wrong with the only leasing you a replacement battery program that won't start till 2014, and by selling badly degraded LEAFs with no warning to the buyer.
I think Nissan should fire everyone currently involved with the LEAF program, and bring in entirely new people.

i have read through some of this and cant find any sourcing for the story that nissan took an AZ LEAF to TN and resold it without doing any refurbish on the battery.

can someone help me with this?

Mine was one. I looked it up using the VIN and it sold near Nashville. Had the same 10 bars and same range on the GOM as when they bought it back.

 

[WetEV]

It's sad that we're so numbed by this, it's not even big news. Oh, another trashed LEAF battery... yep, sounds about right.

It never was big news.

The expectations were unrealistic. Lots of wishful thinking. Hot climates were going to be a problem, Arrhenius's equation isn't new.

A Leaf style BEV makes lots of sense in the PNW, less so in AZ.

 

[Weatherman]

It never was big news.

Oh, I don't know about that.

The battery degradation problem inspired a class-action lawsuit, which prompted Nissan to implement a five-year/60,000 mile battery capacity warranty, which will require them to replace hundreds, if not thousands, of battery packs, at their expense, over the next several years.

That seems pretty big, to me.

 

[TomT]

And less so even is some relatively "benign" climates such as areas of Southern California... (I'm still waiting for that tapering off of degradation that Nissan promised us...)

A Leaf style BEV makes lots of sense in the PNW, less so in AZ.

 

[dhanson865]

Am I the only one that finds it morally troubling that Nissan is shipping LEAFs with badly degraded battery packs east, and now it has been sold to an unsuspecting buyer in Bristol, TN for nearly $20,000?

i have read through some of this and cant find any sourcing for the story that nissan took an AZ LEAF to TN and resold it without doing any refurbish on the battery.

can someone help me with this?

Did you see my post with the data from the carfax report? The for sale listing had pictures of the dash with missing capacity bars still even after going from AZ to MI to TN.

Note it isn't clear that Nissan Corporate shipped it around, it could have been individual dealer transactions. Also note that the car fax report shows the leaf as a one owner vehicle even though it has been moved from state to state to state and we know that the original owner sold it/traded it in/ returned it to Nissan because he posted it here on this thread and other threads under the user name NOC8H18.

Also frustrating that I can't easily search for my own posts here or on Google (apparently Google doesn't cache this forum nor does it index it).

Here is one of the cars I saw before

2011 NISSAN LEAF SV/SL
VIN: JN1AZ0CPXBT008887

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=348174844" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

08/27/2011 NICB Vehicle manufactured and shipped to Arizona
09/27/2011 Pinnacle Nissan Scottsdale, AZ Vehicle offered for sale
09/30/2011 5 Pinnacle Nissan & Infiniti Pre-delivery inspection completed
10/14/2011 10 Pinnacle Nissan & Infiniti Vehicle sold
10/24/2011 Arizona Motor Vehicle Dept. Title #033H011297074 Registration issued or renewed
First owner reported Titled or registered as personal vehicle Loan or lien reported
10/31/2011 194 Pinnacle Nissan & Infiniti Scottsdale, AZ Window tint installed
02/16/2012 5,941 Pinnacle Nissan & Infiniti Scottsdale, AZ Maintenance inspection completed
03/27/2012 Pinnacle Nissan & Infiniti Scottsdale, AZ Vehicle serviced
05/03/2012 9,677 Pinnacle Nissan & Infiniti Scottsdale, AZ Maintenance inspection completed
07/12/2012 12,934 Pinnacle Nissan & Infiniti Scottsdale, AZ Vehicle serviced
10/12/2012 17,314 Pinnacle Nissan & Infiniti Scottsdale, AZ Brake fluid flushed/changed
Paint sealant applied/reapplied
Cabin air filter replaced/cleaned
04/18/2013 22,725 Michigan Motor Vehicle Dept. Saginaw, MI Title #279B1080140 Title or registration issued to manufacturer
05/20/2013 22,727 Auto Auction Tennessee Listed as a manufacturer vehicle Sold at auction
05/22/2013 Bill Gatton Honda Bristol, TN Vehicle offered for sale
05/29/2013 22,731 Bill Gatton Honda Bristol, TN Pre-delivery inspection completed
Maintenance inspection completed
Tires rotated and balanced
Tire condition and pressure checked

Looks like Nissan did it to me but I'm not an expert on car titling processes maybe a dealer can do that without the corporation being involved?

The pics on the autotrader listing clearly show 2 bars lost, if they refurbished the battery it would have more bars even if only temporarily.

Given it was used in AZ how long do you think it'd take for the 3rd bar to go away if someone buys it?

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's sad that we're so numbed by this, it's not even big news. Oh, another trashed LEAF battery... yep, sounds about right.

It never was big news.

The expectations were unrealistic. Lots of wishful thinking. Hot climates were going to be a problem, Arrhenius's equation isn't new.

A Leaf style BEV makes lots of sense in the PNW, less so in AZ.

The expectations were what Nissan told us. Frankly, I was sold, because it surely didn't make sense to me that they would launch a whole new product without solid data. As it turns out, the $1.6 billion from Uncle Sugar required that it be rolled out, ready or not, by Dec 31, 2012 in the USA. Plus, all those high profit margin Altimas and other Nissan products enjoy rolling down the factory in Tennessee that was refurbished with Recovery Act tax dollars intended for EVs. You do know that a LEAF only uses the Tennessee factory assembly line once every 15 minutes, right?

Why did it have to have 100 mile range? Marketing primarily, of course, but the CARB-ZEV credit sales are HUGE in this game. A 100 mile range car with "fast refueling" is worth 4 credits per car, and a simple "75-100" range car is worth only 2.5. That's 62% greater potential income per car for the credits.

So, even if ALL the batteries failed in 12 months, those cars were going to get built!!!

 

[RegGuheert]

The expectations were unrealistic.

Agreed. The expectations as set by Nissan for the LEAF battery in hot climates were unrealistic.

Hot climates were going to be a problem, Arrhenius's equation isn't new.

I wonder how many LEAF buyers know anything about Arrhenius' equations. For those that DID know about them at the time of purchase, that STILL doesn't imply there would be a problem with the LEAF battery in AZ. ALL batteries are subject to Arrhenius' equations, but if the degradation rates are low enough, it doesn't matter. With the LEAF battery, it does matter.

A Leaf style BEV makes lots of sense in the PNW, less so in AZ.

With a proper battery, a LEAF style BEV will make good sense in AZ. Unfortunately, it will likely be a while before such a battery exists. For now, I agree that a TMS is an important feature for AZ EVs.

 

[surfingslovak]

The battery degradation problem inspired a class-action lawsuit, which prompted Nissan to implement a five-year/60,000 mile battery capacity warranty, which will require them to replace hundreds, if not thousands, of battery packs, at their expense, over the next several years.

The settlement of that lawsuit was valued at $10 million, which would imply about 1,000 pack replacements. I can also vouch for this being significant news, especially given the lack of understanding and opposition particularly from experienced EV drivers and advocates. If anyone had a fair shot at analyzing the issue, it was them. They should have realized what was happening, given their prior experience with EVs and familiarity with this technology. I don't think that anyone expected that this battery can reach EOL in 2 1/2 years in Phoenix, given the advertising and statements to the contrary.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DEuGU0mGWc[/youtube]

 

[phxsmiley]

It's sad that we're so numbed by this, it's not even big news. Oh, another trashed LEAF battery... yep, sounds about right.

It never was big news.

The expectations were unrealistic. Lots of wishful thinking. Hot climates were going to be a problem, Arrhenius's equation isn't new.

A Leaf style BEV makes lots of sense in the PNW, less so in AZ.

The expectations were what Nissan told us. Frankly, I was sold, because it surely didn't make sense to me that they would launch a whole new product without solid data. As it turns out, the $1.6 billion from Uncle Sugar required that it be rolled out, ready or not, by Dec 31, 2012 in the USA. Plus, all those high profit margin Altimas and other Nissan products enjoy rolling down the factory in Tennessee that was refurbished with Recovery Act tax dollars intended for EVs. You do know that a LEAF only uses the Tennessee factory assembly line once every 15 minutes, right?

Why did it have to have 100 mile range? Marketing primarily, of course, but the CARB-ZEV credit sales are HUGE in this game. A 100 mile range car with "fast refueling" is worth 4 credits per car, and a simple "75-100" range car is worth only 2.5. That's 62% greater potential income per car for the credits.

So, even if ALL the batteries failed in 12 months, those cars were going to get built!!!

A lot of this makes sense from what I have read, also. But, why make the Phoenix market one of their first roll-out markets, if they suspected a heat-related issue with the batteries? Did Nissan really not know they had an issue with the batteries?

 

[surfingslovak]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DEuGU0mGWc[/youtube]

I note that the above video has been made private. Here is a transcription RegGuheert has written up last year:

Transcription of this video in case it decides to disappear at some point in the future:

URL: http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DEuGU0mGWc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Title: Nissan LEAF Tour Q&A: Battery Replacement
Uploaded by: nissanusa
Upload date: January 27, 2012
Summary paragraph:

Nissan LEAF Tour Expert Kate answers a question from our Facebook Page about when the Nissan LEAFs battery will need to be replaced. For more answers to Nissan LEAF questions, visit http://www.facebook.com/NissanLEAF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Video transcription:

(Fade from black to blue background showing the following words

"Nissan LEAF
drive electric tour"

(Words fade out and the following words fade in

"When will the LEAF
battery need to be replaced?
- Juan E."

(Switch to a scene of a blonde lady with a Nissan LEAF baseball cap standing outside with a blue Nissan LEAF seen out-of-focus in the background. She is speaking and says the following

"The battery pack will NOT have to be replaced after a couple years. In fact, the battery pack's supposed to last AT LEAST 10 years or 100,000 miles. Could be MUCH longer depending on how much you drive."

(Switch back to blue background showing the following words

"Join the conversation at
Facebook.com/NissanLEAF"
(Fade to black)

 

[TomT]

Well, if you are happy with only 40 percent, that may be true...

I note that the above video has been made private. Here is a transcription RegGuheert has written up last year:

 

[surfingslovak]

Well, if you are happy with only 40 percent, that may be true...

Right. 40 percent out of 84 miles of range is 34 miles. I think at least some of the buyers have expected 100 miles of range when new. I doubt that a vehicle with such degraded range had a lot of utility in the Phoenix metro area. (The quoted range figure assumes 65 mph on the freeway, and does not factor in the use of A/C.)

 

[dhanson865]

JN1AZ0CP4BT002227 is a 3 bar loser that used to be in Mesa, AZ but now it is for sale in IL at a Nissan dealer
27,191 miles and they are asking $16,000.

heh, it's a CARFAX 1 owner vehicle :lol: :roll: :!:

Honestly I'd be tempted to buy it if the price were a little cheaper. It's a beautiful car, the 27k miles don't scare me and the 3 bars lost isn't a total dealbreaker for me but it is enough to make me hesitant to shell out too much.

and to be clear that quote was before I saw the batter lease program, I was assuming I could eventually buy a battery at a reasonable cost, my willingness to buy a 3 bar loser has decreased quite a bit, I'd still buy one but I'd pay a lot less for it now than I would a few months ago.

http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=DRI_0&vin=JN1AZ0CP4BT002227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.hovenissan.com/used-Bradley-2011-Nissan-LEAF-Base-JN1AZ0CP4BT002227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

06/22/2011 16 Arizona Motor Vehicle Dept. Mesa, AZ Title #006H011161061 Registration issued or renewed
10/11/2011 7,512 Larry H. Miller Nissan Mesa Mesa, AZ Maintenance inspection completed
02/17/2012 15,771 Larry H. Miller Nissan Mesa Mesa, AZ Maintenance inspection completed
05/25/2012 21,140 Larry H. Miller Nissan Mesa Mesa, AZ Maintenance inspection completed
07/17/2012 23,624 Larry H. Miller Nissan Mesa Mesa, AZ Maintenance inspection completed
01/17/2013 27,179 Michigan Motor Vehicle Dept. Saginaw, MI Title #279B0170199 Title or registration issued to manufacturer
03/11/2013 27,180 Auto Auction Tennessee Listed as a manufacturer vehicle Sold at auction
03/18/2013 Continental Nissan Countryside, IL Vehicle offered for sale
03/22/2013 27,185 Continental Nissan Countryside, IL Pre-delivery inspection completed
05/14/2013 27,191 Dealer Inventory Vehicle offered for sale
06/03/2013 27,316 Auto Auction Illinois Listed as a dealer vehicle Sold at auction
06/07/2013 Hove Buick Nissan Bradley, IL Vehicle offered for sale
06/13/2013 Hove Buick Nissan Bradley, IL Pre-delivery inspection completed
08/03/2013 27,455 Dealer Inventory Vehicle offered for sale

and again dealer pics show it is still down 3 bars, no reason to think they refurbished the battery before shipping it east or after shipping it east.

 

[vrwl]

JN1AZ0CP4BT002227 is a 3 bar loser that used to be in Mesa, AZ but now it is for sale in IL at a Nissan dealer
27,191 miles and they are asking $16,000.

heh, it's a CARFAX 1 owner vehicle :lol: :roll: :!:

Honestly I'd be tempted to buy it if the price were a little cheaper. It's a beautiful car, the 27k miles don't scare me and the 3 bars lost isn't a total dealbreaker for me but it is enough to make me hesitant to shell out too much.

and to be clear that quote was before I saw the batter lease program, I was assuming I could eventually buy a battery at a reasonable cost, my willingness to buy a 3 bar loser has decreased quite a bit, I'd still buy one but I'd pay a lot less for it now than I would a few months ago.

http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=DRI_0&vin=JN1AZ0CP4BT002227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.hovenissan.com/used-Bradley-2011-Nissan-LEAF-Base-JN1AZ0CP4BT002227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and again dealer pics show it is still down 3 bars, no reason to think they refurbished the battery before shipping it east or after shipping it east.

Maybe an Illinois MNL forum member who has the Leaf Battery App could go out to the dealership and check out the capacity numbers if you're really interested in it, because with 3 bars down, it probably won't be long till it hits the 4th bar loss and then it would qualify for a warranty replacement.

 

[TomT]

For those not in the know, it quantitatively defines the relationship between the rate a reaction proceeds and its temperature.

I wonder how many LEAF buyers know anything about Arrhenius' equations.