Car Can Be Unintentionally Put in Neutral While Plugged In

[Stoaty]

I think it is a pain trying to get the car into neutral. Never had an issue here. There are also many folks here that constantly leave their cars on and walk away. I park on hills all the time, nothing but hills here and never had the car go into neutral, never rolled back when I did not want to.

We bow in awe of your superior driving abilities, far above mere mortals.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I think it is a pain trying to get the car into neutral. Never had an issue here. There are also many folks here that constantly leave their cars on and walk away. I park on hills all the time, nothing but hills here and never had the car go into neutral, never rolled back when I did not want to.

We bow in awe of your superior driving abilities, far above mere mortals.

fact is; the car has both a visual and audio warning system for being plugged in or when car is on and driver exits vehicle. we have the option to disable some of these warnings and the proven ability to ignore the ones we cant.

its a system that i think is flawed for anyone who is hearing impaired because the visual is not that forthcoming. but for one who is hearing impaired they are probably used to be more "visual" and as funny as it seems, they would probably be the least likely to leave the car plugged in or running accidentally.

so now we go back to another thread about the inconvenience of having to unlock the doors to exit the vehicle while its running. people could not figure out why this was as it was.

maybe this thread could provide some insight to that

 

[JeremyW]

Looks like the orignal RAV4 EV has the same "roll away" problem as the Leaf.

More than three out of four owners had no charger issues, but several had roll-away damage while parked on
an incline. A ‘roll-away’ is when the vehicle starts moving before the driver intends it to. The RAV4-EV will
not allow the drive system to energize if the charging paddle is still inserted in the charge port. If the key is
turned to the start position, the green ‘READY’ indicator on the dash will not come one, nor will the car
produce the normal ‘beep’ to announce readiness to select a gear. But the car could freely roll. Parking on an
incline and forgetting to unplug before departure can allow the paddle interconnection cable to try to restrain
the cars movement, to the point where the weight of the car is tensioning it. Sometimes the paddle released
from the charge port and hit the hard surface below, cracking its casing. On occasion operation was inhibited,
while on others carefully taping the pieces together allowed for continued use. To repair these now damaged
chargers meant a return visit from the installer and for some the irritation and irregularities experienced
during the purchasing process still echoed. The supposedly ‘required professional installation’ of the charger
before being allowed to take initial delivery still frosted some respondents years later, while others defiantly
and successfully performed self-installation.

http://c55.me/random/2009-12/RAV4-EV_User_Experiences.pdf

Jeremy

 

[planet4ever]

I think it is a pain trying to get the car into neutral. Never had an issue here.

Sorry to disagree, EVDRIVER, but it not that hard to do. On at least two occasions that I can remember I have been chatting with my wife as we got in the car. I buckled up, powered up, put it in reverse, and then looked bewildered as the car went nowhere. We park in the driveway, and neither of us passes in front of the car, which is nosed up to its feeding trough. I guess I should add that I don't charge every night. Fortunately our driveway is nearly level.

Ray

Edit: I changed my tune in my next post below. I now agree with EVDRIVER.

 

[Nekota]

I have intentionally placed my LEAF into neutral while plugged in but I just tried it and I can't get it to go into neutral anymore. Maybe one of the recent software updates has addressed this issue? The LEAF will complain about being plugged in on the dash display but this goes out in a few seconds. I hope this issue was addressed since I cannot get the LEAF into N anymore and I park and charge on a sloped driveway and while I haven't . I tried moving the shift knob and holding for 10 secs with park on, off, drive, acc mode, climate on, foot on brake, foot off break -- all without being able to see N while plugged in. I know I could do it before, but I did not write down the steps.

So how do you get it into N while plugged in?

 

[Stoaty]

I have intentionally placed my LEAF into neutral while plugged in but I just tried it and I can't get it to go into neutral anymore. Maybe one of the recent software updates has addressed this issue? The LEAF will complain about being plugged in on the dash display but this goes out in a few seconds. I hope this issue was addressed since I cannot get the LEAF into N anymore and I park and charge on a sloped driveway and while I haven't . I tried moving the shift knob and holding for 10 secs with park on, off, drive, acc mode, climate on, foot on brake, foot off break -- all without being able to see N while plugged in. I know I could do it before, but I did not write down the steps.

So how do you get it into N while plugged in?

Well, if a couple of other people can't do it either, maybe I need to get the latest software update. If this is the issue, I wish they would tell us what is being fixed in a software update. Did you try my exact steps?

 

[palmermd]

Yep, our car has had every software update available, and it appears that they fixed this on the most recent visit. I can no longer put it into neutral. Even holding it, it wont go with the car plugged in. Wish they would have made neutral available by holding it, but it just beeps after a few seconds, but stays in Park.

 

[Stoaty]

Yep, our car has had every software update available, and it appears that they fixed this on the most recent visit. I can no longer put it into neutral. Even holding it, it wont go with the car plugged in. Wish they would have made neutral available by holding it, but it just beeps after a few seconds, but stays in Park.

A few comments:

1) I guess Nissan considered this a bug
2) Perhaps Nissan should let the customer service know about this fix instead of having them suggest a workaround
3) Why won't Nissan tell us what they are fixing with a TSB?

 

[planet4ever]

Yep, our car has had every software update available, and it appears that they fixed this on the most recent visit. I can no longer put it into neutral.

I just tried it, and it won't go into neutral. Either I was imagining things all along, or they fixed it. (My car was in for service in May.)

Ray

 

[ztanos]

Wish I could like a post like on facebook. :lol: Glad Nissan figured this out and fixed it, even if they didn't mention it as a safety issue.

 

[Stoaty]

Wish I could like a post like on facebook. :lol: Glad Nissan figured this out and fixed it, even if they didn't mention it as a safety issue.

I updated the original post so others won't have to read through 5 pages to see the resolution. Went back and checked just to make sure my report itself wasn't in error--can still shift into neutral (either directly or by trying to go to D or R) when car is plugged in. I think there is only one TSB for my Leaf, so that must be the one. The service people at Nissan should know what is fixed so they can inform customers. I will get this update now to prevent breaking my EVSE next time I am not paying attention (declined when I took car in for battery check in June as I was concerned about an update screwing something up, while nothing seemed to be broken).

 

[EVDRIVER]

I think it is a pain trying to get the car into neutral. Never had an issue here.

Sorry to disagree, EVDRIVER, but it not that hard to do. On at least two occasions that I can remember I have been chatting with my wife as we got in the car. I buckled up, powered up, put it in reverse, and then looked bewildered as the car went nowhere. We park in the driveway, and neither of us passes in front of the car, which is nosed up to its feeding trough. I guess I should add that I don't charge every night. Fortunately our driveway is nearly level.

Ray

Edit: I changed my tune in my next post below. I now agree with EVDRIVER.

If you had it in reverse then the car went nowhere because the parking brake was on. That is normal operation. More likely you "tried" to put it in reverse and it was not in reverse because it was plugged in. If the car was in the run mode it was not plugged in so no issue. Unless you can put the car in reverse and see the "R" on the dash while the car is stil plugged in then it is working properly. User error again from not paying attention to the drive mode on the dash. I know you think that this may be a design issue but the absolute fact is it is a user issue because if the car is operated properly one will never roll back when plugged in even if you somehow find your way to neutral because you are supposed to look at the drive indicator before letting off the foot brake. This also applies to looking in the rear view mirror but many people skip this step in parking lots as well. I suppose auto makers will need a solution for this which is why they have even more sensors on cars for those that need help with their surroundings. Adding more lockout features helps prevent these issues but it still does not change the fact that the issues are the result of sloppy or lazy driving habits.

 

[ztanos]

Driver errors still create safety issues. People can and have sued and have won for less.

 

[Stoaty]

I know you think that this may be a design issue but the absolute fact is it is a user issue because if the car is operated properly one will never roll back when plugged in even if you somehow find your way to neutral because you are supposed to look at the drive indicator before letting off the foot brake. This also applies to looking in the rear view mirror but many people skip this step in parking lots as well.

It is a design issue because a good design lets the user do what they need to do, but prevents them from doing things that they don't need to do, especially if those things are potentially dangerous. I have done a lot of beta testing for a major software firm, reporting well over a thousand bugs. I can tell you without a doubt that allowing the user to do something like this would be considered a bug. The fact that Nissan apparently changed the programming with the latest TSB means they agree that the design was suboptimal and a potential safety issue.

 

[RegGuheert]

Just one more data point: I have tried but I have been completely unsuccessful getting our LEAF to go into neutral while plugged in. Regardless of whether I push it into R, D/ECO or hold it in N for a couple of seconds I get the same response: a double-beep indicating it was going to stay in park.

 

[RedMapleLeaf]

Like I said, I've never made the mistake, but I realized how it could be made. The interface of starting the LEAF and putting it in gear is unusual, you have to admit. That fact makes it more likely that a user will misunderstand the status of the car because it already acts differently from every other car they have driven. When you put an ICE in D or R, you feel the click of the gear shift as it goes into place in addition to the visual cue of seeing the indicator of which gear you put it in. This is how we all learned to drive and how we drove for most of our lives. The LEAF has no tactile or audible feedback of being put in gear, or even turned on - especially if the radio and AC are on.

You are confident that you will not make this mistake, but are you confident that your spouse would not make the mistake, or your teenage offspring?

The point is that it should be improved. I agree with Stoaty's suggestion:

Leaf can only be put into neutral when car is not turned on by pushing shifter to the left and holding it there for a second or two. There is no reason that trying to shift into reverse while car is in accessory mode should put the car in neutral.

This shouldn't bother anyone who is too smart to make this mistake.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read the quote above about teenage offspring. The following is what happened to my MY 2011 LEAF.

My 18 year old son, a usually responsible and careful driver did the following:

• The car was outside the garage facing the garage door and plugged in overnight. The EVSE is inside the garage. Most of the charging cable was coiled on the cable cradle in the garage, then from there went to the floor of the garage under the garage door. There was about 4 feet of cable from the bottom of the garage door to the car's charging port. I park the car very close to the garage door so that the charging cable is not very visible from the street to avoid any invitation for vandalism. (Usually the car is backed into the garage and plugged in behind closed doors, but the garage was used for a project by my other son. Kids....)
• He unplugged the car to run an errand, not opening the garage door, and leaving the 4 feet of charging cable on the driveway coiled up. This is a usual practice lately for short trips because the garage is being used for something else and the garage door is usually not opened.
• When he returned, he wanted to charge the car some more. He drove the car onto the driveway, bringing the car close to the garage door. The driveway has a small incline. He thought he had put the car into Park, but the car was still in ECO (Drive) mode.
• He popped the charging port cover. (This may not be possible on a newer LEAF; I believe the release for the cover is now electronic for this reason.)
• He exited the car, and because the car did not move, he had no reason to think it was not in Park. He did not set the parking brake.
• The reason he did not turn off the car was that he thought it needed to be on to set the charging timers. Yes, this was a flaw, and he should have turned the car off, and then turn it back to accessory mode. Further, the parking brake was not engaged, another serious driver error. (Do all of you set the parking brake religiously when leaving a vehicle? I do. But in this case he did not.) Regardless, the car was in drive mode with no parking brake engaged.
• He plugged the car in. Immediately the car went into Neutral and began to roll backwards down the driveway.
• Because there was so little slack in the cable (and the cable was being held down by the garage door), the cable soon was pulled taut by the rolling car. It bent the metal cable cradle (the EVSE is a Schneider), put a notch in the bottom of the garage door, and promptly ripped out the charging port from the car, including about 14" of cable that goes to an internal connector.

If it hadn't been for the Schneider's metal cable cradle, the charging dock may have been ripped from the wall. To the Schneider's credit, the cable suffered only a minor abrasion where it argued with the cradle and bent it, and the plug had a tiny hairline crack where the body meets the car's charging port with a foam gasket. I could not believe there wasn't more damage to the connector. Otherwise the Schneider unit was undamaged.

It took 5 weeks to get the part and I was lucky that the insurance paid for everything including the rental car for that period, so I was out about $250 in gas. I have since recreated this (with the careful safeguards), including the verification that the car will hold on a slight incline while in drive mode without any brake applied.

I would be extremely interested in knowing about any TSB that fixes this. Nissan (Canada at least) seems to have (or feigns) no knowledge of this. If there is a software update for this, I'd like to know so I can inquire why it was not applied earlier.

I'm trying to figure out how to embed images to this post (I know I did it before) so bear with me -- I'll have pictures soon.
UPDATE: Here are some images. First one is the charging port assembly that was torn out of the car. The others are of the Schneider dock when it was new (note the cradle), and then the damage done to the cradle from the car pulling the cable. It is amazing to me (and a testament to the Schneider cable) that the cable did not sustain more damage.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

interesting story.

 

[Stoaty]

[*]He exited the car, and because the car did not move, he had no reason to think it was not in Park. He did not set the parking brake.
[*]The reason he did not turn off the car was that he thought it needed to be on to set the charging timers. Yes, this was a flaw, and he should have turned the car off, and then turn it back to accessory mode. Further, the parking brake was not engaged, another serious driver error. (Do all of you set the parking brake religiously when leaving a vehicle? I do. But in this case he did not.) Regardless, the car was in drive mode with no parking brake engaged.
[*]He plugged the car in. Immediately the car went into Neutral and began to roll backwards down the driveway.

I would say that the correct design is that as soon as the car is plugged in it should go into park. Any other setting (R, D, N) while the car is plugged in is a problem waiting to happen.

 

[mkjayakumar]

I would say that the correct design is that as soon as the car is plugged in it should go into park.

..and should stay in Park as long as the cable is plugged in.

 

[TimLee]

...
I would say that the correct design is that as soon as the car is plugged in it should go into park. Any other setting (R, D, N) while the car is plugged in is a problem waiting to happen.

Agree.

Interesting to note that the incident started with the driver leaving the car in Drive on a slight upgrade and exiting the vehicle.
Likely same thing that happened where the LEAF went into Neutral when the car shutdown and rolled down driveway and crashed through fence.
Electric vehicles are so quiet that they should go into Park unless a driver is in the driver's seat.
Would stop a lot of dangerous results from driver error.