Changing from an 2011 BMW 520d am I crazy?

[Mongoose]

Hi all!

I'm a new member here, just found this forum, and I need some help/advice, from real owners/professionals/enthusiast So from you ppl
I'm from Europe (living in Paris-France), so apologize for my bad English, for the beginning

Some fact's about my "problem", and what you have to know:

- Now I have a 2011 BMW 520d automatic what has around 7 liter/100km in city (33,6 miles/g in US)
- My daily commute is only 20+20km (is around 24 miles), in a little hilly area (I starting from my house with a 2+km downhill)
- My car is parking in the night in my garage, and daily in my company's garage. Both place has a charger off course (in my company-s garage, the charging is free)
- As a family car my wife has an 2010 Lexus RX450h so for the Long trips we have a car.
- The BMW is in my own company's name, and because from some tax issues, I must have to by the car from myself privately, or sold the car in the next few months(but it's just a financing part), if I sell the BMW I can get some extra cash (around the 70% of the Nissan-s price).
- The France government is supporting the EV buyers with 7000€ (around 9000USD), so I get this discount immediately + a local government is supporting the EV buyers, because you do not have to pay any (!) cost of the first registration of the car.
- If I change, my LEAF is almost free because of the tax, gov, and company issues, and I do not have to pay some addition monthly taxes (Because the Nissan is an EV)what is around 50USD/month. But if I keep the BMW it will cost for me, the half of the real market price(!).
- As a computer engineer I like gadget's :ugeek: , but I'm hesitating, to change, because I'm afraid about the battery issues (you know the laptop battery problems?!), but I know the car has a 5 year full EV system warranty, but what will happens after? What if I need to change the batteries. And some of my friend's are saying I'm totally stupid, to change a low consumption BMW to a Nissan, even if its an EV.

So I'm totally don't know what should I do, and this is the reason why I turning to you. Because I do not have any friend who has a similar car, and who can share his experiences.

Thanks for your help in advance! And sorry, I know it was too long

 

[surfingslovak]

Salut! Welcome! Good on you to consider an EV, which could be beneficial both to your pocketbook and to the environment. Not to mention fun to drive. You might want to contact Christophe Hubert, who lives in Paris and owns a LEAF. He has been blogging about it, and has shared some of his experience in our Facebook group as well.

We had other threads, where prospective owners who owned a BMW asked similar questions. I've referenced one of them below. Along with a LEAF vs ActiveE comparison. Boomer23 is quite familiar with BMWs, and a good point of reference. His blog is here.

Realizing that this is a LEAF forum, I still have to mention this. Have you considered the Renault Zoe? It's a smaller car, comparable to the Clio in its dimensions, but it appears to be very well designed, and it shares some of the technology with the LEAF. One of the differences here is that the battery is leased, which helps reduce the upfront price.

BMW Owner sitting on the fence.....

BMW ActiveE consumer field trials to begin in summer 2011- LEAF comparison 1

BMW ActiveE consumer field trials to begin in summer 2011 - LEAF comparison 2

Renault Zoe

Official BMW I3, I8 / megacity EV thread

 

[RonDawg]

Welcome to the forum. Don't be ashamed of your English...it's much better than some who were educated here in the US :lol:

Your post answers just about all of the usual questions in regards to the ability to charge and any government incentives. For comparison purposes, the US Government gives us up to a $7500 tax credit, but when you get that money back and whether it is the full amount depends on some factors. Some states also give additional incentives. California gives $2500 back, and I heard the state of West Virginia gives $7500! Coal mining is big in West Virginia so you can see why they would encourage you to use more electricity

One factor you do not mention is the cost of electricity in you area. In the US, electricity pricing varies quite widely. Where I live, to drive my Leaf 1000 miles/1600 km costs approximately $30 in electricity.

I've never driven a diesel-powered BMW but I have been to France (2004, for the 60th anniversary of D-Day) and I know that even diesel is expensive there compared to what we pay in the US. So even with a "half-price" BMW you may come out ahead by getting an electric car, unless electricity is very expensive where you are.

As far as the battery degradation issue, unless there is a part of France that gets to 40 or 45 degrees C on a regular basis, I would not worry about it. Just charge only up to 80% unless you really need the extra distance that day. Your commute is very similar in distance to mine.

Maybe once you get your Leaf, you can replicate Claude Lelouch's film C'était un Rendezvous and drive your Leaf across the city from the Périphérique to Sacré Cœur early one morning. This would be at legal speeds of course (unlike the original film). It will also be ridiculously silent, unlike the original :lol:

 

[Mongoose]

Thanks for the info about Christophe, I will contact him. I checked the ZOE, I try it in the Paris Auto Show last year. It's nice, but the difference with the LEAF is around 4000€, and I don't speak about a monthly battery renting fee.

And from my side the LEAF look's a more serious car...

 

[Mongoose]

Welcome to the forum. Don't be ashamed of your English...it's much better than some who were educated here in the US :lol:

Your post answers just about all of the usual questions in regards to the ability to charge and any government incentives. For comparison purposes, the US Government gives us up to a $7500 tax credit, but when you get that money back and whether it is the full amount depends on some factors. Some states also give additional incentives. California gives $2500 back, and I heard the state of West Virginia gives $7500! Coal mining is big in West Virginia so you can see why they would encourage you to use more electricity

One factor you do not mention is the cost of electricity in you area. In the US, electricity pricing varies quite widely. Where I live, to drive my Leaf 1000 miles/1600 km costs approximately $30 in electricity.

I've never driven a diesel-powered BMW but I have been to France (2004, for the 60th anniversary of D-Day) and I know that even diesel is expensive there compared to what we pay in the US. So even with a "half-price" BMW you may come out ahead by getting an electric car, unless electricity is very expensive where you are.

As far as the battery degradation issue, unless there is a part of France that gets to 40 or 45 degrees C on a regular basis, I would not worry about it. Just charge only up to 80% unless you really need the extra distance that day. Your commute is very similar in distance to mine.

Maybe once you get your Leaf, you can replicate Claude Lelouch's film C'était un Rendezvous and drive your Leaf across the city from the Périphérique to Sacré Cœur early one morning. This would be at legal speeds of course (unlike the original film). It will also be ridiculously silent, unlike the original :lol:

At first: Thanks
About the price of the electricity: Because of the most Nuclear plant's in the EU, France has the cheapest electricity in the EU, the price for 1000miles in my calculation is around 40€.
And you're right the diesel, and off course the gas is much more expensive than US (Even almost everything, this is the reason, why we travel once a year to the US to shop clothes )
But about the battery: So you suggest to not charge fully all the night?

And yes, I need to make that movie

 

[coolfilmaker]

If you can figure out a way, I would wait for the BMW i3. It looks like it will be an amazing car.

 

[Mongoose]

If you can figure out a way, I would wait for the BMW i3. It looks like it will be an amazing car.

Yes you are right, and the BMW i roadshow is coming to Paris in next week, so I will be there...

But there is 2 problems with the i3: the first is the price..its beginning from around 41 000€, what can be almost double the price of the LEAF, if we would like to install the same options what the LEAF has (You know the BMW market policy: a navigation system for 3500€).
And the second (the bigger) is the body itself: It's nice and revolutionary to made a car from carbon-fiber, and reinforced plastic, but I cannot imagine how expensive will be the repairs of a crash damage.
OK. Off course we do not buy cars to break it, but in my 20+ driving years in the past, sometimes happened...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Some possible advantages to the LEAF vs Zoe. Both cars use the same battery cells made by AESC, but use significantly different packaging of the cells. The LEAF battery cannot be swapped.

LEAF uses CHAdeMO quick charging. Europe has 652 of these. See this map:

https://maps.google.fr/maps?q=http:%2F%2Fwww.chademo.com%2Fkml%2FCHAdeMO_map_in_130312.kml&hl=fr&sll=16.135296,-10.432528&sspn=134.358856,346.289063&t=m&z=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[coolfilmaker]

If you can figure out a way, I would wait for the BMW i3. It looks like it will be an amazing car.

Yes you are right, and the BMW i roadshow is coming to Paris in next week, so I will be there...

But there is 2 problems with the i3: the first is the price..its beginning from around 41 000€, what can be almost double the price of the LEAF, if we would like to install the same options what the LEAF has (You know the BMW market policy: a navigation system for 3500€).
And the second (the bigger) is the body itself: It's nice and revolutionary to made a car from carbon-fiber, and reinforced plastic, but I cannot imagine how expensive will be the repairs of a crash damage.
OK. Off course we do not buy cars to break it, but in my 20+ driving years in the past, sometimes happened...

I think carbon fiber has the possibility of being cheaper to repair than metal since carbon fiber doesn't deform, it just breaks. They say they will be able to cut out the fractured piece and glue in a replacement. They won't have to put the car on a jig and align the body components which I think should make it a cheaper process.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The BMW i3 will not use those 650 CHAdeMO chargers already in Europe. BMW are introducing cars with yet another standard of DC charging to compete with CHAdeMO. Currently, there are no public BMW chargers yet, but the German government intends to put a lot of them in Germany. No word on France supporting this new standard.

The Renault Zoe will use yet another quick charge standard with AC charging at 22kW or 44kW called Chameleon.

The BMW i3 can get an optional small motorcycle petrol engine to charge the battery and extend range.

 

[garygid]

From your description, it sounds like your situation is ideal
for the LEAF, for weather, money, driving range, and charging.

You could charge to 80% Monday through Thursday at work,
charging to 100% on Friday, all for free.

The LEAF appears to be a great choice for your situation.

Maybe "crazy" to NOT get the LEAF?

 

[smkettner]

Get the LEAF. You will love it. Just watch how often your friends ask you to drive when you go out :lol:

 

[Mongoose]

The BMW i3 will not use those 650 CHAdeMO chargers already in Europe. BMW are introducing cars with yet another standard of DC charging to compete with CHAdeMO. Currently, there are no public BMW chargers yet, but the German government intends to put a lot of them in Germany. No word on France supporting this new standard.

The Renault Zoe will use yet another quick charge standard with AC charging at 22kW or 44kW called Chameleon.

The BMW i3 can get an optional small motorcycle petrol engine to charge the battery and extend range.

This Charger thing is a little mess

About the Zoe: It's a nice car, I tried in the Paris Auto Show, the only problem is the size. The car is simply to small for my size (195cm tall). If I sit in the front I need too push back the front seat, until the beginning of the second seat. I calculated a price, in the official calculator and the difference with the LEAF (including the monthly battery renting fees), is 50(!!!)€...so it's nothing...

Yes the i3 is coming out with an range extender option, and the upgrade price will be 4000€ around. So for the base price 40000+4000 + the extras are minimum 2-6K...it means...it will can be close for 50K€...its the double of the LEAF price...

 

[surfingslovak]

Yes the i3 is coming out with an range extender option, and the upgrade price will be 4000€ around. So for the base price 40000+4000 + the extras are minimum 2-6K...it means...it will can be close for 50K€...its the double of the LEAF price...

Yes, the i3 will likely be substantially more expensive, and I believe that BMW officials went on record stating that they don't consider it to be a LEAF competitor. They are obviously pricing it relative to the Infinity LE and base Model S. That said, the base price was said to be €39K and the the REx option €3K. Not substantial difference, but a difference nonetheless. Also, navigation should be standard on the i3, I believe, and not a few thousand extra. It will be needed to find charging stations and extend the range. We have no idea what the pricing will look like, and while you are probably correct that BMW might find an opportunity or two to charge more, it's too soon to speculate about it. The ActiveE had zero options to choose from, but it's a limited field trial. While it's substantially more expensive than the LEAF leases that abound now, it was not that much more compared to the early LEAF pricing. Since you will be apparently buying, I would at least wait until battery replacement prices are announced by Nissan. Paris is comparable to Seattle in its climatic impact, according to the modeling based on Arrhenius law. Most owners there see great battery longevity. How many kilometers do you expect to put on the LEAF annually? Will the LEAF be garaged outside or in an enclosed garage? How warm does that garage get in the summer?

 

[Mongoose]

Yes the i3 is coming out with an range extender option, and the upgrade price will be 4000€ around. So for the base price 40000+4000 + the extras are minimum 2-6K...it means...it will can be close for 50K€...its the double of the LEAF price...

Since you will be apparently buying, I would at least wait until battery replacement prices are announced by Nissan. Paris is comparable to Seattle in its climatic impact, according to the modeling based on Arrhenius law. Most owners there see great battery longevity. How many kilometers do you expect to put on the LEAF annually? Will the LEAF be garaged outside or in an enclosed garage? How warm does that garage get in the summer?

You are right about the i3. My garages are heated and are in a basement so the temperature is mostly in the all year 20C/66F.

But I did some research about the Renault ZOE: The prices are not the same, what I mentioned before, because we need to reduce the the price with the 7000€gov. support. What is means: the car + the monthly batt. rental fee for around 3 years is 10 000€ cheaper than a LEAF. So I will go a Renault dealer today and will look what the details are

 

[RonDawg]

But about the battery: So you suggest to not charge fully all the night?

Nissan has implemented a "long battery life" mode on the Leaf by letting you charge to only 80% instead of 100%. For 2011 and 2012 cars, this can only be done through the built-in charge timer; for 2013 (at least for North America cars, which are now built in Tennessee) you can also do this without having to use a timer. EU Leafs I believe will soon be coming from the Nissan factory in the UK so I'm not sure if those will have the exact same features as ours do.

If your electricity is cheaper in the middle of the night as it is in much of the US, the charge timer can be set to automatically take advantage of this without having to get up in the middle of the night, or early in the morning, to connect and disconnect your Leaf from your house electricity.

If you expect to do enough driving that 80% charge may not be sufficient, you can still charge to 100%, but is recommended that you set the charge timer to end just before you expect to use the car, and to not set a start time. The car will determine when to start charging, rather than starting at a specific time.

 

[Mongoose]

I went yesterday to a Renault dealership and I checked the ZOE. The fact's are the following:

- The car end price with gov. support is 15 500€ (ZEN version)
- The monthly battery rent fee is 79€ for the first 3 year, then 10€/month.
- The battery has an endless warranty. As the dealer sad: If we start to comply for the capacity they change it for free.
- The chameleon charger can support any outdoor charger type (here in France)
- But (and here comes the problem), for the home charging you need to ask an installation for a special charger box to your home (it cost 400-800€)
- And the car is not chargeable by any kind of normal home 220V EU standard outlet (!!!)

Otherwise the car is amazing, its cheap, but the quality is okay, the onboard entertainment system is awesome you can navigate for hour's between the menus
But the missing regular charger is a huge problem for me. For example: If I would like to go to my parents house for a visit(what is in a small town, and the is no any outdoor pay station charger), its around 65km-s, what is OK if I can charge the car there during the lunch or something. But without the charging opportunity, I cannot risk to go, for example during the summer in the 30c...

So the ZOE is a big question for me now: Should I by a LEAF for around 6K€ more or risk with the ZOE and wait for the normal charger...

 

[KevinSharpe]

I responded to many of your ZOE charging questions here;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2824&p=278329#p278328

 

[KevinSharpe]

The Renault Zoe will use yet another quick charge standard with AC charging at 22kW or 44kW called Chameleon.

We have several cars in Europe that use AC 'rapid' charging using the standard Type 2 connector.

22kW AC is already widely supported because it's basically a 32A Charging Station with a 3 phase contactor instead of a 1 phase contactor. Imagine a version of your 30A J1772 Charging Stations with 3 live wires and 1 neutral. It's very cheap to deploy

43kW AC is being installed in dealers and at many of the CHAdeMO locations.

IMO these AC systems complement high power DC perfectly... however, I believe 'high' power will be 150kW DC or greater, not 50kW DC.

 

[Mongoose]

Hello guys!

Just an update: Yesterday I ordered my new 2013 Nissan Leaf, Acenta in pearl white ... So I need to wait a few more weeks to arrive... I had a same feeling when I boot my iPhone 2007...when all of my friends saw it they just laugh about it, because it's so expensive and not runs Windows CE... The rest is history