Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% charge

[EdmondLeaf]

Only problem is it appears his original capacity was already down ~7%.

I think you agree GerryAZ GID is about 230

I think it should be a little higher. The charging efficiency for L2@16A is around 91.5%, so 21.28*0.915/0.08 = 243 gids.

I used 85% efficiency or 3.88 kWh from wall 3.3 kWh in the battery
and/or

vegastar: 25.5 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (72F, 6 temp bars) (22.85kWh recently@275 gids, 393V)

 

[vegastar]

I don't know the gids I got in the 25 kW.h event because I didn't have the gidmeter yet. This charge had 2 or 3 charge stops e-mails (equalizations), so the efficiency was probably lower. The 22.85kW.h event didn't have any subsequent equalizations so we can use that value with the gid value as a baseline. So 21.28/22.85 x 275 gives 256 gids which is a little higher than expected for a 91.5% efficiency.

 

[RegGuheert]

Only problem is it appears his original capacity was already down ~7%.

Was it? His original wall energy from shutdown to 100% was the same as what vegastar measured from turtle when he ended up with 275 GIDs, which would appear to be down by only about 3%.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I think you agree GerryAZ GID is about 230

I think it should be a little higher. The charging efficiency for L2@16A is around 91.5%, so 21.28*0.915/0.08 = 243 gids.

I used 85% efficiency or 3.88 kWh from wall 3.3 kWh in the battery
and/or

vegastar: 25.5 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (72F, 6 temp bars) (22.85kWh recently@275 gids, 393V)

Unfortunately I was right with my prediction of GerryAZ GID, I feared he was on edge to loss top bar and it happened. I hate to be bad messenger

 

[vegastar]

Bad news indeed. I think that maybe somehow the charge efficiency of GerryAZ is lower than mine as I got 275 gids with 22.85 kW.h from turtle to 100% charge.

 

[edatoakrun]

I will reply with data when I get it compiled. I have been recording trip and charge data on note cards since I picked up my Leaf in June. TickTock's charge kWh numbers from turtle to 100% are significantly lower than I have measured. My commute dictates that I charge to 100% every charge so I may see capacity loss sooner than others.

I finally have my charging data organized. When my Leaf was new it took 22.85 kWh from the wall to charge from shutdown (end of turtle mode) to 100% using L2 with my AV EVSE. On June 30, 2012 at 11,728 miles, it took 21.28 kWh to charge from shutdown to 100%, again using my L2 AV. Therefore, my battery capacity is higher than Tick Tock's, but significantly lower than others have reported. CarWings reported 15.8 and 14.5 kWh, respectively for electricity consumption on the days corresponding to those charging events.

(21.28/22.85)*100=93.13% so I still have 93% of my original capacity after a little over one year in the Arizona desert.

Gerry

From looking at the following comments on this thread, I suspect your LEAF has lost only the ~7-8 % of capacity, between these two tests, as calculated by both your "from the wall" calculations and the CW kWh numbers above.

Could you please describe what "new" is?

What was the history of your car prior to the first test, time since construction, miles driven, time of exposure to high temperature's, etc.?

It also sounds like you have never had CW updated?

If not, if you update now, you may be able to calculate more history of your cars battery capacity history from other pre-update CW reports. It has always looked to me like my CW may have reported consistently wrong before the update, by under-reporting by about 20%-25%. Anyone with gid/SOC meter results, or other capacity tests pre-update, could determine if this is so, (and if so, find the correct coefficient) by looking at pre and post update CW reports. Unfortunately, (AFAIK) in the year since the update was made available, no one has looked at this, and reported results.

Multiply your CW reports above by 1.20, for example, and you would get results that
you may have had a "new" capacity, from "100%" to shutdown, of about 19kWh, which has now now been reduced to about 17.4 kWh.

I am now getting warm-weather CW results of about 17.5 of kWh use from "100%" to just past VLBW, consistent with my LEAFs reduced capacity. I've never taken my car to a lower charge level than this.

My oldest (updated) CW report, and highest kWh use report for this same 100% to VLBW, on (about) the same test drive route, was 18.7 kWh, but this was about 3 months and 3,000 miles, after delivery.

 

[RegGuheert]

Only problem is it appears his original capacity was already down ~7%.

Was it?

Apparently it was...

Sorry about the loss of your first capacity bar, Gerry.

ETA: One thing I see now that I omitted in my previous calculation was the effect of temperature. GerryAZ charged his car at about 90F while vegastar achieved his result about 30F cooler, below 60F. That would probably account for the other four percent.

 

[TickTock]

Here's the updated list. I am keeping the updated number separate since I think degradation is covered in great detail elsewhere but didn't want to omit it since it is good data.

Initial:
TickTock: 21.7 kWh Dead to 100 from the wall (EKM-25IDS meter, 20.04 kWh actually entering the battery) 11/21/11
vegastar: 25.5 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (72F, 6 temp bars) 11/21/11
TomT: 26.8 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (TED, new, 26.1 recently) 11/21/11
surfingslovak: 24.3 kwh turtle (5 Gids) to 100 (Coulomb L2) 1/18/12
camasleaf: 22.3kW Turtle to 100 (Blink, 50F)
GerryAZ: 22.85kWh (15.8 CW) Dead to 100 6/12/11

Later:
vegastar: 22.86 kWh Turtle (6 GIDs) to 100 (275 GIDs) from the wall (~60F, 5 temp bars) 3/26/12
GerryAZ: 21.3kWh (14.5 CW)Dead to 100 6/30/12
TickTock: 20.8kWh Turtle (5 gids) to 100 (217 gids) from wall 6/6/12

 

[RegGuheert]

Later:
vegastar: 25.5 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (72F, 6 temp bars) 11/21/11

Should be:

Later:
vegastar: 22.86 kWh Turtle (6 GIDs) to 100 (275 GIDs) from the wall (~60F, 5 temp bars) 3/26/12

 

[edatoakrun]

Here's the updated list. I am keeping the updated number separate since I think degradation is covered in great detail elsewhere but didn't want to omit it since it is good data.

Initial:
TickTock: 21.7 kWh Dead to 100 from the wall (EKM-25IDS meter, 20.04 kWh actually entering the battery) 11/21/11
vegastar: 25.5 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (72F, 6 temp bars) 11/21/11
TomT: 26.8 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (TED, new, 26.1 recently) 11/21/11
surfingslovak: 24.3 kwh turtle (5 Gids) to 100 (Coulomb L2) 1/18/12
camasleaf: 22.3kW Turtle to 100 (Blink, 50F)
GerryAZ: 22.85kWh (15.8 CW) Dead to 100 6/12/11

Later:
vegastar: 25.5 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (72F, 6 temp bars) 11/21/11
GerryAZ: 21.3kWh (14.5 CW)Dead to 100 6/30/12
TickTock: 20.8kWh Turtle (5 gids) to 100 (217 gids) from wall 6/6/12

Thanks for the summary, TickTock.

I know it might be difficult to compile, but I suspect the circumstances of battery use and climate history prior to the "initial", reports, might be very enlightening. IIRC, you now believe you may have had higher capacity, prior to the "initial" results you posted above, right?

I hope that many of the current and future deliveries, will check their capacity, as soon as possible.

 

[TickTock]

Later:
vegastar: 25.5 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (72F, 6 temp bars) 11/21/11

Should be:

Later:
vegastar: 22.86 kWh Turtle (6 GIDs) to 100 (275 GIDs) from the wall (~60F, 5 temp bars) 3/26/12

Oops. Thanks. Fixed.

 

[TickTock]

Here's the updated list. I am keeping the updated number separate since I think degradation is covered in great detail elsewhere but didn't want to omit it since it is good data.

Initial:
TickTock: 21.7 kWh Dead to 100 from the wall (EKM-25IDS meter, 20.04 kWh actually entering the battery) 11/21/11
vegastar: 25.5 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (72F, 6 temp bars) 11/21/11
TomT: 26.8 kWh Turtle to 100 from the wall (TED, new, 26.1 recently) 11/21/11
surfingslovak: 24.3 kwh turtle (5 Gids) to 100 (Coulomb L2) 1/18/12
camasleaf: 22.3kW Turtle to 100 (Blink, 50F)
GerryAZ: 22.85kWh (15.8 CW) Dead to 100 6/12/11

Later:
vegastar: 22.86 kWh Turtle (6 GIDs) to 100 (275 GIDs) from the wall (~60F, 5 temp bars) 3/26/12
GerryAZ: 21.3kWh (14.5 CW)Dead to 100 6/30/12
TickTock: 20.8kWh Turtle (5 gids) to 100 (217 gids) from wall 6/6/12

Thanks for the summary, TickTock.

I know it might be difficult to compile, but I suspect the circumstances of battery use and climate history prior to the "initial", reports, might be very enlightening. IIRC, you now believe you may have had higher capacity, prior to the "initial" results you posted above, right?

I hope that many of the current and future deliveries, will check their capacity, as soon as possible.

Yeah, it's a bit frustrating not knowing. Prior to all the reports of degradation, I was convinced my Leaf arrived degraded. However, given all dropped bars I started to think degradation from June to October was a more likely explanation. But NOW, GerryAZ is reporting very similar numbers for when his was new, so my initial belief isn't so far fetched anymore.

Out of curiosity, GerryAZ, have you looked inside your battery cutoff hatch? Mine was quite grubby - suggesting the battery had a former life.

 

[DaveEV]

This isn't turtle to 100% charge data, but it should be relevant - I've been collecting 80%-100% energy data and LBW (or lower) to 80% data. Last night I got VLBW (0.8mi past VLBW) to 80% and then 80%-100% data. Data collected from Blink.

VLBW - 80%: 16.259 kWh 4h 21m (Blink EVSE, 0.8mi past VLBW)
80% - 100%: 4.847 kWh 1h 22m
VLBW - 100%: 21.1 kWh

With VLBW = 24 gids and turtle = 7 gids, hard to imagine that I would have gotten more than another 1.5 kWh from the wall (24-7 * 80 / 85%) if I had gone to turtle.

I have a feeling that my pack was pretty unbalanced - I have been noting a steady decline in 80%-100% charge energy (100% charge about once a month) from 4.959 kWh in Jan to 3.959 kWh last Sat - but last night's 80-100% saw that jump back up to 4.847 kWh.

So it seems that when collecting data - it seems that it's important to try to make sure that the pack is really full and balanced as I'd guess at least a 1kWh difference could show up unless you charge to 100% frequently.

 

[RegGuheert]

Unfortunately, I do not have a convenient way to measure energy during L2 charging. However, I can measure L1 energy using my Brand Power Meter. Like drees, my data is also from VLBW instead of turtle. Since this all makes my data a little convoluted, please feel free to exclude it from any compilations. I hope you don't mind me recording the data here anyway.

Before the trip:
I charged to 100% at L2 and left the car on the charger for an additional 4 hours followed by one hour of climate control while still connected to the EVSE.

During the trip:
My wife arrived home just after LBW having driven 74 miles @ 4.9 mi/kWh. I took the car out later and drove to VLBW after 87.9 miles @ 5.1 mi/kWh. That means we extracted about 17.2 kWh from our LEAF's battery between 100% and VLBW. Carwings predicted 17 hours for a full charge.

Recharging from VLBW to 100%
Wall energy, L1, VLBW - 100%: 27.17 kWh
Time, L1, VLBW - 100%: 14.75 hours

I can only estimate L2 equivalent energy, but my estimate is certainly fraught with errors. To do this, I will assume L2 charging would have finished in 1/3 the time, or about 5 hours. During the additional 10 hours, I estimate 300W of power consumption by the LEAF for pumps, etc., for a total extra waste of about 3kWh. That gives:

Wall energy, L2 estimated: VLBW - 100%: ~24 kWh

 

[Boomer23]

I posted this a few days ago on the "I want my 281" and "Lost a bar" threads, but here is the data that is relevant to this thread.

Turtle to 100% (I didn't have Gid meter yet, but I was getting 281 regularly in those days), April 14, 2011, LEAF was 2 weeks old: 26.1 kWh (TED)

same measurement July 8, 2012: 21.7 kWh (TED) ending at 265 Gid.

I haven't lost a bar yet, charges to 80% still give me 10 bars. Lowest Gid reading at 100% charge was 257.

 

[DaveEV]

Interesting that your 2 turtle to 100% charges are 4.4 kWh different, but the GID count is only 16 (16*80 = 1.9 kWh / 85% = 2.2 kWh from the wall) different.

Where did the other 2.2 kWh go?

 

[surfingslovak]

Great to see all this data in one place! You might want to include waidy. She took possession of her Leaf on February 4 last year, so this must have happened in March or April 2011:

I was totally out of juice 30' in front of my garage or 40' in reach of my charger. I refilled it with 23.897 AC kWh (reading from the charger). The battery pack is 24 DC(?) kWh so you may now do your calculation. Thanks for accepting my data.

I went out of juice (purposely to test whether the turtle light works in my LEAF) a few weeks after I got my LEAF. I was 30 feet in reach of my charger I had to use a long extension cord to trickle charge the LEAF so it would have enough juice to move 30 feet.

You might have seen this, and perhaps you are only collecting data for relatively new Leafs, but a full charge for my Leaf took 22.96 kWh on June 24.

surfingslovak: 24.3 kwh turtle (5 Gids) to 100 (Coulomb L2) 1/18/12

 

[NullPointer]

I'll add my numbers from a range test on June 9, 2012:

27.1 kWh Dead to 100 from the wall (Kill-a-Watt meter, 120V, 19 hours, ~85F, 6 temp bars) 6/9/12

Details:
2012 Leaf, 7700 miles, seven months old. Car charged the night before to 100%, and left plugged in for another four hours after charging was complete.

Range test: 119.4 miles total at 5.8 mi/kWh (dash). LBW at 100.1, VLBW at 108.7, Turtle at 118.1, Dead at 119.4. Conditions: temperature 81F, crosswind at 8mph, Climate control off, fan on low, regular 200W draw from other systems. The route has speeds of 30 - 55 mph, typically 45 mph, occasional lights, moderately hilly with the elevation regularly varying between 500 and 900 feet. Six temp bars throughout.

Recharged to full overnight at 120V. Measured 27.1 kWh using a Kill-a-Watt meter. Total charge time 19 hours. Charged in garage, outside temperature range 91F - 67F.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

This isn't turtle to 100% charge data, but it should be relevant - I've been collecting 80%-100% energy data and LBW (or lower) to 80% data. Last night I got VLBW (0.8mi past VLBW) to 80% and then 80%-100% data. Data collected from Blink.

VLBW - 80%: 16.259 kWh 4h 21m (Blink EVSE, 0.8mi past VLBW)
80% - 100%: 4.847 kWh 1h 22m
VLBW - 100%: 21.1 kWh

With VLBW = 24 gids and turtle = 7 gids, hard to imagine that I would have gotten more than another 1.5 kWh from the wall (24-7 * 80 / 85%) if I had gone to turtle.

I have a feeling that my pack was pretty unbalanced - I have been noting a steady decline in 80%-100% charge energy (100% charge about once a month) from 4.959 kWh in Jan to 3.959 kWh last Sat - but last night's 80-100% saw that jump back up to 4.847 kWh.

So it seems that when collecting data - it seems that it's important to try to make sure that the pack is really full and balanced as I'd guess at least a 1kWh difference could show up unless you charge to 100% frequently.

i see a 10-12 GID variance on a full charge. part of it is probably temperature dependent although that "fact" is hardly a done deal but i charged fully today for first time in over a week and got 266. my pack "should" be around 275

 

[TickTock]

Thanks for all the inputs, I decided to put them all in a spreadsheet so I could easily normalize all the datapoints (last column):

Leaf Capacity Variation

I wasn't sure about the date of Waidy's last datapoint (put in a guess of 6/6/2012) and GerryAZ's datapoint (he said this was when the car was new so I put a guess of 0 days).