Complete Costco Solar Panel Systems

[QueenBee]

So if you someone were to buy this 7.99kW Sharp Solar Panel set for $6999, that comes out to only .88 cents a watt.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-99KW-Sharp-235W-Mono-Solar-Panel-NU-U235F9-BX-60-Mono-Solar-Cell-Panel-/170908722559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

So what other costs will be involved?
Looks like 34 Panels. Is this a good deal for grade "B" panels?
How much do M215 Enphase micro inverters cost?

If it is so expensive for labor here in So Cal, what are the alternatives?
Would it be worthwhile, or difficult to get your own electrician certification? Are classes expensive?

Other costs would include permits, inverters (~$140 for M215s), engage cabling (~$20 per inverter), misc. engage cabling, grounding supplies including ground wires and inverters to rails, panels to rails, and rail to rail bonding, method for transitioning the wiring into the house (for example SolaDeck 0783-3R), rails, rail hardware, roof mounting, wiring from the roof to the breaker panel, potentially an external disconnect, misc electrical supplies, surge protection.

Those panels seems like a good deal for Sharp panels as they are expensive. The only issue I have with them is that they are less efficient than other panels at the same per watt cost. Since the panels are less than 50% of the materials cost and the rest of the materials are very much per panel having more efficient panels is important, not to say that paying a premium for super efficient panels pencils out though.

I'll give you some examples from my the ~10KW addition I'm doing. As I haven't ordered yet these are still in flux but are generally in the right ball park.
Total materials cost including panels is about $1.90 per watt
Looking at Canadian Solar CS6P-245P panels for $.85 a watt

I'm not sure how California/your local jurisdiction feels about DIY electrical work but in WA a homeowner can do their own electrical work so you would not need to become a licensed electrician, which AFAIK would be very lengthy, time consuming, and expensive. It seems to me MotherNatureSolar needs to clone himself and start servicing the LA area, he's got his systems down to $3.50 a watt installed!

I think things cost so much because solar contractors have a lot of overhead, labor is expensive and there are a lot of details involved. I also think they are trying to keep their markup on the materials high while the price of things are plummeting. Running a business isn't cheap so there is a lot of costs that go into being a professional solar installer and the larger you get the more overhead you have supporting the business.

As far as if solar is a DIY task for you. I think if you put in the time to research and figure out how everything works and have help from people who have done it before you can easily design and source a system. The electrical work needed in an Enphase system is pretty standard. Having a good plan and design which has been reviewed by your electrical inspectors is half the battle. Then if you've got the skills to do normal electrical work (Running wire, stripping, wire nuts, installing breakers, etc) you shouldn't have any problem having your work pass an inspection. Then the other part is how comfortable you are locating your trusses, drilling pilot holes into them, installing flashing on your roof, and securing the roof mounts with lag bolts into the trusses. Then assembling the rails, securing the panels, getting the panels on the roof, etc.

For me I'm OK with electrical work, but am not all that handy with building stuff. Fortunately I am good at reading, figuring stuff out, attempting to understand everything, etc. Then I have family who are roofers/general contractors so I design everything, get it approved, and they help install it. I still need to understand how everything fits together since they've never done solar PV but they've got the skills.

To give you an idea of what the design looks like here is my package from my original system: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/429071/PV.zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ELROY]

So if you someone were to buy this 7.99kW Sharp Solar Panel set for $6999, that comes out to only .88 cents a watt.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-99KW-Sharp-235W-Mono-Solar-Panel-NU-U235F9-BX-60-Mono-Solar-Cell-Panel-/170908722559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

So what other costs will be involved?
Looks like 34 Panels. Is this a good deal for grade "B" panels?
How much do M215 Enphase micro inverters cost?

If it is so expensive for labor here in So Cal, what are the alternatives?
Would it be worthwhile, or difficult to get your own electrician certification? Are classes expensive?

Other costs would include permits, inverters (~$140 for M215s), engage cabling (~$20 per inverter), misc. engage cabling, grounding supplies including ground wires and inverters to rails, panels to rails, and rail to rail bonding, method for transitioning the wiring into the house (for example SolaDeck 0783-3R), rails, rail hardware, roof mounting, wiring from the roof to the breaker panel, potentially an external disconnect, misc electrical supplies, surge protection.

Those panels seems like a good deal for Sharp panels as they are expensive. The only issue I have with them is that they are less efficient than other panels at the same per watt cost. Since the panels are less than 50% of the materials cost and the rest of the materials are very much per panel having more efficient panels is important, not to say that paying a premium for super efficient panels pencils out though.

I'll give you some examples from my the ~10KW addition I'm doing. As I haven't ordered yet these are still in flux but are generally in the right ball park.
Total materials cost including panels is about $1.90 per watt
Looking at Canadian Solar CS6P-245P panels for $.85 a watt

I'm not sure how California/your local jurisdiction feels about DIY electrical work but in WA a homeowner can do their own electrical work so you would not need to become a licensed electrician, which AFAIK would be very lengthy, time consuming, and expensive. It seems to me MotherNatureSolar needs to clone himself and start servicing the LA area, he's got his systems down to $3.50 a watt installed!

I think things cost so much because solar contractors have a lot of overhead, labor is expensive and there are a lot of details involved. I also think they are trying to keep their markup on the materials high while the price of things are plummeting. Running a business isn't cheap so there is a lot of costs that go into being a professional solar installer and the larger you get the more overhead you have supporting the business.

As far as if solar is a DIY task for you. I think if you put in the time to research and figure out how everything works and have help from people who have done it before you can easily design and source a system. The electrical work needed in an Enphase system is pretty standard. Having a good plan and design which has been reviewed by your electrical inspectors is half the battle. Then if you've got the skills to do normal electrical work (Running wire, stripping, wire nuts, installing breakers, etc) you shouldn't have any problem having your work pass an inspection. Then the other part is how comfortable you are locating your trusses, drilling pilot holes into them, installing flashing on your roof, and securing the roof mounts with lag bolts into the trusses. Then assembling the rails, securing the panels, getting the panels on the roof, etc.

For me I'm OK with electrical work, but am not all that handy with building stuff. Fortunately I am good at reading, figuring stuff out, attempting to understand everything, etc. Then I have family who are roofers/general contractors so I design everything, get it approved, and they help install it. I still need to understand how everything fits together since they've never done solar PV but they've got the skills.

To give you an idea of what the design looks like here is my package from my original system: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/429071/PV.zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very informative. Yes here, in order to be grid tied it has to be installed by a licensed electrical contractor. I believe that is also necessary to get your federal incentives, including using UL listed panels? I also have lightweight clay roofing til that I would try and remove myself in order to save money. The replace with composite shingles, or whatever is easiest to mount panels on the roofing slope.

 

[QueenBee]

Very informative. Yes here, in order to be grid tied it has to be installed by a licensed electrical contractor. I believe that is also necessary to get your federal incentives, including using UL listed panels? I also have lightweight clay roofing til that I would try and remove myself in order to save money. The replace with composite shingles, or whatever is easiest to mount panels on the roofing slope.

Are you sure about that? Who is requiring it? The federal credit certainly allows for self installs. I'm not sure about UL listing but all electrical inspectors are going to require listed components so it's not really a question since you'll without a question want to get this properly permitted.

The CSI rebate does not require it see: http://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov/csi/faqs.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Except for those systems that are self-installed, all systems must be installed by appropriately licensed California contractors in accordance with rules and regulations adopted by the California Contractors State Licensing Board (CSLB.)"

I just skimmed the SCE net metering interconnection specifications and don't see any mention of it there, I think as long as the local electrical inspector signs off and you meet SCE's requirements there isn't an issue. https://www.sce.com/wps/wcm/connect/69531af9-15f6-43e1-8368-a195c65fa249/NEM_Interconnection_Handbook.pdf?MOD=AJPERES" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I couldn't find anything about Camarillo's homeowner electrical work code.

This document has some templates used for permitting and when filling out who the installer is you can check Homeowner or Contractor/etc.: http://opr.ca.gov/docs/California_Solar_Permitting_Guidebook.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ELROY]

I was doing some battery/inverter testing to see what the feasibiity was in running a 1000 watt load on a 115ah deep marine battery I just bought from Costco ($100) for this purpose. (not the one pictured). I found that I could not even run a 1000 watt load for a split second without battery voltage falling below 10.5 volts and shutting the inverter down. It seems 500 watts was the most I could run with the inverter pulling around 50 amps. So it seems the battery won't come close to holding 12 volts with a 100amp load. So perhaps 3 batteries might run a 1500 watt load, but probably only for a few minutes. It seems that if you discharge the battery to even 50% you are only looking at around 200 cycles, or 1/10th the lifespan if you discharge it to 20%! So it seems the battery alternative is not cost effective whatsoever. Just using these Costco Batteries for a 4 hr charge at 20% discharge would require about $8000 in batteries, which would have to be replaced in a few years. So yes, if there is any way to do a Grid Tied system by myself, that would be awesome.

So you want to go Off-Grid with a Stand Alone Battery system to save money at stick it to the man huh? I understand but do you know one simple fact batteries need replaced about every 5 years on average?

So you are typical John Doe who uses 30 Kwh per day and pays the Mean Ole Greedy Power Company (POCO) $100 to $120 per month to make the Greedy SOB's at the POCO filthy rich.

Well here is a FACT to start with to help you decide. It will take a 10,000 pound, $23,000 dollar battery to make it work that needs replaced every 5 years or so depending on the amount of daily care you give it. The battery will be more expensive 5 years down the road when it is time to replace it. That is just for the battery alone. No shipping cost or all the other $25,000 to $50,000 of additional equipment you will need to pull it off.

Now compare the battery cost alone @ $23,000 for 5 years vs up to $7200 on the high end to the mean ole POCO for the same amount of power in 5 years.

So who gets it stuck up there you know what going off-grid if you have a choice?

Hope that helps.

Edit Note:

I can hear the Green Mafia crying right now faced with facts.

Fourth step is to select a battery. If possible we want to only have one single string of batteries wired in series to obtain the voltage needed. We only want to use true deep cycle batteries made for renewable energy. This limits manufactures, and you will not find them at Walmart. A very good manufacture with the best warranty is Rolls-Surrette. They have a very good selection tool you can use. Check the RE battery option, input Desired AH, input +/- Percentage (10 to 15%), and 20 Hour Rate. Then you will see your choices to the right. Select a battery with enough AH capacity to construct with 1 string if possible. In this case the Rolls S1380 is the right choice. It is a 2 volt @ 1050 AH battery so you would need 12 of them wired in series to make 24 volts. The battery carries a 7 year warranty, with 2 years free replacement and last 5 prorated. You can expect 5 years of life out of it with excellent care.

Finally you might be asking why do I need so may batteries and reserve capacity. Well the answer is batteries only have so many cycles (discharge/charge) in them and the number of cycles depends on the depth of discharge. Generically the Cycles vs Depth of Discharges (DOD) look like this:

* 50% = 200 cycles
* 40% = 500 cycles
* 30% = 1000 cycles
* 20% = 2000 cycles
* 10% = 4000 cycles

 

[JimSouCal]

Like usual, another thread becomes very informative because of member contribution... I am getting renovating now, and once I get the roof plan approved, will get bids (will also have several alternative locations for solar such as trellis paths, and some covered patito areas). I have decided not to use solar shingles, and to use microinverters for reliability and scalability...mostly due to watching and listening here... One thing for sure, the low hanging fruit is conservation... More on that later along with solar thermal questions in a more appropriate thread...

As far as installing yourself, maybe find a friendly electrical contractor who will work on time and materials and sign off... I will probably use the most cost effective way that very likely be a specialist firm... But maybe not.

 

[ELROY]

Like usual, another thread becomes very informative because of member contribution... I am getting renovating now, and once I get the roof plan approved, will get bids (will also have several alternative locations for solar such as trellis paths, and some covered patito areas). I have decided not to use solar shingles, and to use microinverters for reliability and scalability...mostly due to watching and listening here... One thing for sure, the low hanging fruit is conservation... More on that later along with solar thermal questions in a more appropriate thread...

As far as installing yourself, maybe find a friendly electrical contractor who will work on time and materials and sign off... I will probably use the most cost effective way that very likely be a specialist firm... But maybe not.

Yes, it seems like the Enphase M215 microinverters are the way to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9lAMKZYeYQ&feature=player_embedded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also, I see people selling them for up to $200 each (including tax/shipping). So 40 of them could run you $8000!
In that case, this 10kW system with 40 panels including 40 M215 inverters for about $13K doesn't sound too bad?
(Grade A, USA made cells, etc)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-KW-Kit-40-ASW-250w-ARRA-Solar-Panels-40-Enphase-M-215-Micro-Inverters-/171002076893?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d0849edd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[AndyH]

I was doing some battery/inverter testing to see what the feasibiity was in running a 1000 watt load on a 115ah deep marine battery I just bought from Costco ($100) for this purpose. (not the one pictured). I found that I could not even run a 1000 watt load for a split second without battery voltage falling below 10.5 volts and shutting the inverter down. It seems 500 watts was the most I could run with the inverter pulling around 50 amps. So it seems the battery won't come close to holding 12 volts with a 100amp load. So perhaps 3 batteries might run a 1500 watt load, but probably only for a few minutes. It seems that if you discharge the battery to even 50% you are only looking at around 200 cycles, or 1/10th the lifespan if you discharge it to 20%! So it seems the battery alternative is not cost effective whatsoever. Just using these Costco Batteries for a 4 hr charge at 20% discharge would require about $8000 in batteries, which would have to be replaced in a few years. So yes, if there is any way to do a Grid Tied system by myself, that would be awesome.

<snip>

Good job actually testing! Unfortunately, as you've found, the battery alternative is not cost effective when one uses the wrong equipment. Fortunately there's another option.

The battery you tested - a commonly available battery labeled 'deep cycle' - is little more than an automotive starter battery with a new label. It uses the same lead sponge plates that are tailored to provide short bursts of high current rather than a long service life. At the very least, plan to use a golf cart battery - they are true deep cycle and should provide at least five years of service if cycled - longer in standby service. A quality set of industrial deep cycle batteries - designed from the start for this type of service - will likely last 15-20 years in backup service if maintained (watered, equalized) properly.

Here's an oldy but goody from one of the principals at HomePower magazine - someone that's been off-grid for more than 20 years:
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/...rces/homepower-magazine/archives/1/01pg25.txt

I'll be happy to work through battery options if you care to - what size loads do you want to power and for how long?

If you want, for example, to run your 1KW inverter for five sunless/windless/generatorless days, and want to keep battery discharge to 50% - there are 'apps' for that!

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/pdf.folder/Download folder/System_Worksheet.pdf
http://www.altestore.com/store/calculators/load_calculator/
http://www.altestore.com/store/calculators/off_grid_calculator/
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/battery_sizing.html

My off grid system will use a 24V battery consisting of a single string of 1110Ah 2V flooded lead acid batteries. The battery bank will cost just over $4K and should last about 10 years.

 

[ELROY]

I saw these "grid tied" inverter setups on Ebay. Apparently you can hook up your solar panels, and on some of these you just plug it into the wall outlet and it feeds back seamlessly, offsetting your home net usage.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300W-500W-1000W-Micro-Grid-Tie-Inverter-for-Solar-Home-System-MPPT-Function-/221180692373?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item337f658795" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do these really tie in seamlessly without electronic interference, or hazard? I think it would be great to run a 1500-2000 watt solar system (8 panels), and just plug this thing into the wall to offset my regular usage when the sun is out. (Helping with my A/C costs in summer when I'm at .60 cents/kWh during peak hrs!

My biggest question is, will this actually cause the meter to spin backwards? If so, will SCE see this and oppose it? Requiring the whole permitting, electrical contractor expense. They already track my hourly usage, so it would stand out like a sore thumb to see usage going negative during peak sunlight hours.

Is a do it yourself setup like this going to make it ineligible for the 30% Federal Tax Credit? I think the Calif Rebate might not apply to this kind of do it your self system.

 

[AndyH]

Elroy,

I had a small 'guerrilla solar' system running for about two years. It is possible to do, and energy added to the house will offset household usage. Provided one has a meter that'll spin backward, it will anytime your local generation is greater than your energy use. I was able to get the meter to run backwards, but only after I turned almost everything in the house off.

It's not difficult to do in a completely functional and safe way, but it'll likely not be considered legal by the power company or the local code enforcers.

A legal option option that many are doing is to install panels, battery, and inverter and dedicating it to a single or small group of circuits in the house. Some take their home offices 'off grid', others run the refrigerator and freezer. They're basically building a PV-charged uninterruptible power supply. They use a transfer switch to reconnect to the grid if anything happens to the PV system.

Andy

 

[ELROY]

I have one of those smart meters. You can see in my very first post, SCE can monitor your hourly usage. So yes, if it somehow went backwards, which in not hard to imagine when at times during the day I am averaging under 1kWh. But with summer coming, the window A/C unit alone will raise that by close to 2kWh. So if I have a system that would offset the usage through a wall socket, it would be refreshingly simple. It would actually be nice to have an inverter that you plug the AC system into, and then it would just draw off the grid power whenever needed to make up for the deficit. But in a way, with everything drawing off the same house wiring, its probably effectively the same net difference any ways.

Wonder how an inverter such as this EBay one syncs to the AC grid power. Does it trace the wave form and frequency, and perfectly work in sync/phase with it instead of accidentally shorting out??

Elroy,

I had a small 'guerrilla solar' system running for about two years. It is possible to do, and energy added to the house will offset household usage. Provided one has a meter that'll spin backward, it will anytime your local generation is greater than your energy use. I was able to get the meter to run backwards, but only after I turned almost everything in the house off.

It's not difficult to do in a completely functional and safe way, but it'll likely not be considered legal by the power company or the local code enforcers.

A legal option option that many are doing is to install panels, battery, and inverter and dedicating it to a single or small group of circuits in the house. Some take their home offices 'off grid', others run the refrigerator and freezer. They're basically building a PV-charged uninterruptible power supply. They use a transfer switch to reconnect to the grid if anything happens to the PV system.

Andy

 

[Smidge204]

Yay, another opportunity to mention Nickel-Iron storage batteries :lol:

Of course they do cost a premium, but last longer and are much more resistant to abuse than lead-acid.
=Smidge=

 

[QueenBee]

Elroy,

I had a small 'guerrilla solar' system running for about two years. It is possible to do, and energy added to the house will offset household usage. Provided one has a meter that'll spin backward, it will anytime your local generation is greater than your energy use. I was able to get the meter to run backwards, but only after I turned almost everything in the house off.

It's not difficult to do in a completely functional and safe way, but it'll likely not be considered legal by the power company or the local code enforcers.

A legal option option that many are doing is to install panels, battery, and inverter and dedicating it to a single or small group of circuits in the house. Some take their home offices 'off grid', others run the refrigerator and freezer. They're basically building a PV-charged uninterruptible power supply. They use a transfer switch to reconnect to the grid if anything happens to the PV system.

Andy

If panels are "installed" there isn't anyway to get around having it properly designed, permitted, and installed. If your jursidication allows you to do DIY electrical work then it would be possible to install it properly and to code yourself.

DIY does not make the project ineligible for the 30% federal credit but I'm not an expert on the California incentives but from the quick research I had done previously it did not seem to be an issue.

One note on running the meter backwards. My mechanical meter that was being digitally read would spin backwards but it would actually ticket a positive amount even though it was going backwards. I would suspect most meters will do this so that you can't install the meter backwards and have it run backwards. I suspect digital meters will have the same behavior or a customer who did not have a net metering agreement whose meter was going negative would have an inspection from the utility headed their way to see what was happening.

Then when I got final approval they replaced the meter with one that has two counters, one for power delivered and one for power returned.

I admit when I got my panels I couldn't wait to install them so I put the panel out in the yard and wired up the Enphase microinverter to a breaker to play with things.

Elroy, If you are serious wanting solar I think you should seriously just look into properly designing a DIY system with easy to implement Enphase microinverters. As a comparison they are only about $65 more than the inverters you linked to on eBay but they aren't completely sketch unlisted unbranded, etc.

 

[AndyH]

Elroy,

I had a small 'guerrilla solar' system running for about two years. It is possible to do, and energy added to the house will offset household usage. Provided one has a meter that'll spin backward, it will anytime your local generation is greater than your energy use. I was able to get the meter to run backwards, but only after I turned almost everything in the house off.

It's not difficult to do in a completely functional and safe way, but it'll likely not be considered legal by the power company or the local code enforcers.

A legal option option that many are doing is to install panels, battery, and inverter and dedicating it to a single or small group of circuits in the house. Some take their home offices 'off grid', others run the refrigerator and freezer. They're basically building a PV-charged uninterruptible power supply. They use a transfer switch to reconnect to the grid if anything happens to the PV system.

Andy

If panels are "installed" there isn't anyway to get around having it properly designed, permitted, and installed.

I agree if you add 'legal' or 'approved' to this statement, but cannot agree with the statement as written. I am absolutely NOT suggesting or recommending that anyone do anything illegal, immoral, or fattening. But the permit and/or approval of any system or device does not make it safe or properly designed. People were properly designing, installing, and operating grid-tied devices well before there were permits, rules, or codes in place to regulate those installations.

If your jursidication allows you to do DIY electrical work then it would be possible to install it properly and to code yourself.

DIY does not make the project ineligible for the 30% federal credit but I'm not an expert on the California incentives but from the quick research I had done previously it did not seem to be an issue.

One note on running the meter backwards. My mechanical meter that was being digitally read would spin backwards but it would actually ticket a positive amount even though it was going backwards. I would suspect most meters will do this so that you can't install the meter backwards and have it run backwards.

There are a number of different types of mechanical meters. I've only heard of one type that incremented when running in either direction, and I think it was from someone here on the forum. The simple old-school meters installed here, in Srn Illinois, Tucson, and Michigan when I lived in these places did not increment in reverse.

I suspect digital meters will have the same behavior or a customer who did not have a net metering agreement whose meter was going negative would have an inspection from the utility headed their way to see what was happening.

Then when I got final approval they replaced the meter with one that has two counters, one for power delivered and one for power returned.

I admit when I got my panels I couldn't wait to install them so I put the panel out in the yard and wired up the Enphase microinverter to a breaker to play with things.

Elroy, If you are serious wanting solar I think you should seriously just look into properly designing a DIY system with easy to implement Enphase microinverters. As a comparison they are only about $65 more than the inverters you linked to on eBay but they aren't completely sketch unlisted unbranded, etc.

There are a lot of options for inverters, and for other micros that are not tied to a very narrow range of appropriate solar panels. I suggest we would need to know more about exactly what Elroy wants to accomplish before making product recommendations.