diesel ranks almost as clean as hybrids

[theaveng]

The greenercars environmentalist website ranks all cars cleanliness (from factory to disposal). They list the Prius ICE-based car every bit as efficient/clean as an EV.

They also rank the new diesels (designed to run on sulfur-free fuel) as being only a few percent less clean than the Prius & other hybrids:

55 Prius, Civic hybrid
51 Fusion hybrid
47 Jetta TDI, Audi A3, Gulf TDI
46 Beetle TDI, Passat TDI

Out of 100 max score. The cleanest cars ever made (according to greenercars) were the Civic CNG, and the 70 mpg Insight hybrid (both ranked 4% cleaner than the Prius or an EV)

 

[TomT]

I still believe that a diesel hybrid is the ultimate ICE power plant.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

What about all the toxic emissions from diesels ?

Some greenies think that Co2 is a pollutant, and may see diesels as "green" (don't make me laugh) just because diesels emit less Co2 than petrols, far from makes them clean, even with low sulphur fuel

 

[user 10599]

I think part of the analysis involves gallons burned over the life of the vehicle. If a vehicle is driven 250k miles, but gets better mpg, it will burn fewer gallons. Fewer gallons of petroleum product burned would tend to translate to less emissions. Also, I think I recall that diesels have longer service lives, so on a fleet policy basis, diesel translates to fewer cars being built and then disposed of. They may have factored that in as well.

I'm guessing that EVs are taking a big hit due to assumed premature battery disposal issue since we don't yet have much in place for re-using batteries that have degraded past the point of tolerance for use in vehicle range.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I think part of the analysis involves gallons burned over the life of the vehicle. If a vehicle is driven 250k miles, but gets better mpg, it will burn fewer gallons. Fewer gallons of petroleum product burned would tend to translate to less emissions. Also, I think I recall that diesels have longer service lives, so on a fleet policy basis, diesel translates to fewer cars being built and then disposed of. They may have factored that in as well.

I'm guessing that EVs are taking a big hit due to assumed premature battery disposal issue since we don't yet have much in place for re-using batteries that have degraded past the point of tolerance for use in vehicle range.

Modern diesels are not nearly as reliable as they used to be, there are so many cars here that suffer dpf and dmf failure for instance. And there also not as economical as they are made out to be. People are now cutting out the dpf. Future emissions tests will most likely catch on to this practice.

Tax is lower on diesels here and people are buying them despite them being completely unsuitable for small mileage, but people are buying brand new diesel cars to save some money on fuel and yearly motor tax when in fact their greatest cost is depreciation, despite the diesel costing more to buy. Madness!

Modern diesels are too complicated with all the extra kit to reduce exhaust.

The euro NEDC is a total farce of a test and in no way reflects real life driving and so emissions must be higher.

Diesels may relate to lesser Co2 emissions but they emit far more toxic emissions than petrols and diesel exhaust has now been proven to cause heart disease and lung cancer.

So while you emit less co2 with diesels you emit far more dangerous emissions that are harmful to human health and the environment.

Mercedes has stated that making diesels in the not so distant future will be too expensive.

For quiet a lot of people buying a brand new electric car is much better for the individual and the environment than a brand new diesel car, A brand new Leaf costs less than a 1.6Diesel VW Golf DSG. yet only 45 electrics were sold on this Island so far in 2013.

There are longevity issues regarding the leaf battery and range which are an issue for most people, if Nissan can solve these by Leaf II in 2017 then maybe they will sell much better.

The diesel VW will cost a lot more to maintain, and there is the possibility of dpf and dmf failure which are expensive to repair out of warranty, and one of the reasons I will never buy a diesel again. Most diesels require timing belt replacements also, though so do a lot of other cars, but not the prius. Sure the VW will be a much nicer place to sit than a prius which could be the deciding factor in someone's decision to purchase or not.

However the cost of replacing a battery won't be cheap, so there needs to be some kind of money offered for the old battery. And getting to your comment on end of life batteries, well electric companies could use them for storing renewable energy or you could use it for storage if there were some kind of way to do this in the future.

So think twice before anyone falls into the diesel economy trap, imho a Prius is a far far more reliable car, it's complicated drive train has proved to be ultra reliable.

I regularly get 50-55 us mpg in my MK II prius, now with 105K miles, which isn't bad for 10 year old technology, there have been 0 faults. While this isn't the best as the best modern (very small) Euro diesels, it isn't far off what a lot of diesel drivers get in a car of equal size and power, granted it takes practice to get the best out of it but I know the Prius will suffer far less problems.

The prius is far bigger than a lot of small diesels with a good bit more power, if you think driving a car that gets 0-100 kph in 14 seconds good, then try one first. If you want a diesel with good acceleration then you'll still probably get a bit less mpg than the prius.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Don't forget that most "clean diesels" require that liquid urea be carried in a tank for injection into the exhaust, and 'topped up' regularly, along with the fuel and lubricating oil. I believe that VW uses a 'burn-off' catalytic converter instead, but I don't think I'd want to be behind a "clean diesel" when it cleans its cat...

Europeans tend to like diesels because the fuel has been free of sulfur for decades. Americans tend to hate them because our fuel has had the sulfur left in (it costs a whole *penny a gallon* to remove it!) until recently and they have always stank to hell. I think we should use diesels where an ICE is needed (and run it on bio-fuel if possible), but leapfrog the whole ICE problem wherever possible.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

No, diesels should be banned because of hazardous emissions,

A LPG hybrid would be far better for the environment, Even a regular petrol converted to LPG.

In Europe there are still many filthy dirty heavy goods vehicles, and I wish now diesel would just disappear.

North America missed the whole diesel revolution ( or most of it) think yourselves lucky ! there is far better technology out there today, electric being one, Plug in prius or Volt/Ampera and normal prius.

Just imagine 3 cylinder diesel engine noise and rattle in a small car (4 cylinder is bad enough), it's going to be horrible and you'l wish for your 6 cylinder V6 any day ! Some diesel cars when the come up behind me when I'm walking, I always laugh because I expect a big van or something, then a tiny 3 cylinder diesel passes me. I couldn't live with the shame all for economy.

You also got a much narrower power band in a Turbo diesel, but good low down torque.

My brother bought a 10 year old Volvo S80 2.0L turbo 5cylinder petrol 180 hp, a very comfortable car, not the most economical but it cost 2,000 Euro's with 78,000 miles, a car that cost 50,000 Euro's new. There is incredible value in 2nd hand petrols here atm because everyone wants the diesel to save money but fail to realise depreciation is their largest cost. If they buy 2nd hand they'll have to buy one with star ship mileage.

If he wants real economy then he will convert to LPG and Volvo petrols love lpg.

A V6 on LPG is far better for the environment with much less harmful emissions.

If you want real economy in a decent size car then convert the prius to LPG and you got real economy.

LPG is usually burned off at the refinery because there is much less use for it, we could use it as a far cleaner alternative to Diesel.

Don't be fooled by ultra rich car makers claims the diesel is the savour of the world and it will save you loads of $$$€€€£££, it is far from the truth !

 

[Stoaty]

Some greenies think that Co2 is a pollutant, and may see diesels as "green" (don't make me laugh) just because diesels emit less Co2 than petrols, far from makes them clean, even with low sulphur fuel

Well, the educated ones don't think that. Black carbon from diesels is a major global warming pollutant:

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/01/16/1452741/black-carbon-larger-cause-of-climate-change-than-previously-assessed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[theaveng]

What about all the toxic emissions from diesels ?

They pass the world's most stringent emissions: Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (ULEV) and Super ULEV in the state of California. The "toxic" emissions have been eliminated the same way they were with gasoline cars: Via catalytic converters. That's why Greenercars ranks the diesels so high.

BTW neither Volkswagen nor Mazda use urea/soot traps in their diesel sedans.
They say the engine runs clean as gasoline: http://youtu.be/cK5SQkEUBdo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TomT]

Those days are gone on modern emission controlled passenger diesels. There is literally zero black carbon...

Black carbon from diesels is a major global warming pollutant

 

[o00scorpion00o]

What about all the toxic emissions from diesels ?

They pass the world's most stringent emissions: Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (ULEV) and Super ULEV in the state of California. The "toxic" emissions have been eliminated the same way they were with gasoline cars: Via catalytic converters. That's why Greenercars ranks the diesels so high.

BTW neither Volkswagen nor Mazda use urea/soot traps in their diesel sedans.
They say the engine runs clean as gasoline: http://youtu.be/cK5SQkEUBdo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well in diesel obsessed Europe, why does the e.u propose to eliminate diesel by 2050 if diesel is so clean ?

By the way most VAG modern diesels use a particulate filter as well as many other cars. Those filters then release this black carbon during the cleaning cycle. And if you drive mainly in town, where do you think this carbon particulate goes ?

You see the idea of the filter was to trap the black soot while driving at slow speeds then while on the motorway/highway outside the city the car would burn off that soot at certain intervals.

Low sulphur doesn't mean a diesel is clean far from it.

There is a tonne of other emissions from diesels that make them dangerous. Especially the nano sized partials which no filter can trap, if they could then the filter would be such that the exhaust system would be blocked and the engine couldn't breath.

Diesel is a completely unnecessary fuel LPG is much, much cleaner and you don't need expensive exhaust treatment and you can convert regular petrol cars, or most of them.

The Prius on LPG would be one of the cheapest cars to run in Europe, probably run a Prius on LPG here as cheap as a Prius on petrol in the U.S and one of the lowest emissions possible apart from electric.

The plug in Prius even lower, and the volt/ampera lower again if it can be converted to LPG.

Don't be fooled by diesel low co2 advantage, because even if you believe man is the cause of so called climate change,or not which isn't the debate here, then if you honestly think diesels are better for that reason then realise the other toxic emissions from diesels far outweigh the small benefits in co2.

A plug in Prius would be far better for the environment and your health than any diesel.

Of course those treated with urea might be different, but IMO it's completely unnecessary as LPG is an already much cleaner fuel than diesel. All this exhaust treatment on diesels is too complex.

 

[cwerdna]

What about all the toxic emissions from diesels ?

They pass the world's most stringent emissions: Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (ULEV) and Super ULEV in the state of California. The "toxic" emissions have been eliminated the same way they were with gasoline cars: Via catalytic converters. .

These so-called "clean diesels" do terrible on the California smog score and EPA pollution scores compared to many gasoline powered vehicles.

See http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/Search_and_Explore/Smog_Score.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; by select 9, 8, 7, and 6 while trying out model years 2014 and 2013.

Go thru the same years for http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults_by_tech.php?tech=45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; from the View Vehicles diesel link at http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/Search_and_Explore/Technologies_and_Fuel_Types.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I see none better than a 5.

 

[theaveng]

I don't see how a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) can be considered dirty? That's the sticker California placed on the compact car VW diesel engines, and actually makes them Cleaner than a first generation Prius (which was ULEV... no S). Also cleaner than my Civic Hybrid (ULEV).

The "toxic" emissions have been eliminated in diesels the same way they were with gasoline cars: Via catalytic converters. That's why Greenercars ranks the diesels so high (only a few percent below Priuses and EVs).

watch this video: http://youtu.be/cK5SQkEUBdo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well in diesel obsessed Europe, why does the e.u propose to eliminate diesel by 2050 if diesel is so clean ?

LOL. The E.U. also proposed to give themselves a raise in pay, but the EU Court shot them down (denied the pay rise). The EU says lots of things but doesn't have the power to do it.

In the U.S. diesel is actually *expanding* not contracting. Prior to 2013 the only diesel sedans available in the U.S. were Mercedes and Volkswagen. Now a LOT of car companies are expanding their diesel sedan lineup:
- M-B
- VW
- Chevrolet(new in 2014)
- Mazda (new in 2014)
- Ford (new in 2014)
- Volvo (new in 2015)

 

[Stoaty]

These so-called "clean diesels" do terrible on the California smog score and EPA pollution scores compared to many gasoline powered vehicles.

See http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/Search_and_Explore/Smog_Score.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; by select 9, 8, 7, and 6 while trying out model years 2014 and 2013.

Go thru the same years for http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults_by_tech.php?tech=45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; from the View Vehicles diesel link at http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/Search_and_Explore/Technologies_and_Fuel_Types.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I see none better than a 5.

It appears that the "clean diesels" are clean relative to their ancestors, not relative to the whole universe of cars.

 

[cwerdna]

I don't see how a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) can be considered dirty? That's the sticker California placed on the compact car VW diesel engines, and actually makes them Cleaner than a first generation Prius (which was ULEV... no S)

http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults.php?year=2001&make=Toyota&model=PRIUS&x=44&y=13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; shows an 01 Prius (Gen 1) getting a 8/10 smog score.

Where's a "clean diesel" getting better than that?

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; when looking up an 01 California Prius getting 9/10 for air pollution score. If you go all the way to the right, check both checkboxes and select 2012, California, you can look at what scores diesels are getting.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Detailsresult.do?vehicle_ID=41377" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says "Emissions Certification Standard: SULEV".

 

[user 10599]

Some say potayto some say potahto.

Yes, clean diesels still produce toxic exhaust. But guess what, if you breath gas exhaust, you will die faster than if you breath diesel exhaust.

Both produce undesirable emissions, though the exact composition differs. That is why zero-emmision ev's really need to supplant ICE vehicles for most commuter needs.

I'm glad to see that diesel technology has improved their emissions footprint. The same can be said for gas cars.

Where diesel really beats gas is the better mpg. I acknowledge my diesel driving experience was on a 1980's 240D. So yes, I have driven a car that takes 18 plus seconds to go from 0 - 60. However, I can't speak to the newer diesels' complexity causing a major drop in longevity. That would be interesting to see what life-cycle times they used in their factory to disposal calculations for each car.

I know that a lot of things 'could' be done with degrading batteries, but since these aren't actively in place, I'm betting the ev's are taking a bad hit in their calculations. In theory, the ev should be scoring better than any ICE.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

One of the points of it all is the fact that diesel isn't necessary, LPG has around the same co2 emissions as diesel but far less toxic emissions.

Hybrid diesels would be a great option.

My advice to North Americans is to not get fooled by manufacturers about claims that diesel is some kind of green alternative and it will save you money.

I can guarantee that a Prius is far more reliable than a modern diesel. I've had diesels for years and probably close to 400,000 miles , however since driving the Prius, I won't be going back.

Don't buy diesels because it will force car makers to invest more in electrics.

I find it strange that I only saw V6 diesels in the links above ??? No 4 cylinder ? Or are they only for poor Europeans ?

 

[user 10599]

For years I've been drooling over the idea of getting a diesel C-class here in California. But for some reason, MB will only put diesels into their higher priced cars here (e.g., E, ML, R). Looking internationally, if my kilometer per liter to miles per gallon conversions are correct, that would be a pretty good improvement versus my gas version.

Of course that is based on how happy I was with the 240D and the 190D that I used to have and that I really like the gas-powered C that I currenlty have.

I can't understand why we haven't seen diesel hybrids. Wouldn't that be incredibly efficient for mpg versus just about anything else out there?

I can't speak about all locations do to differing fuel tax structures, but I heard about a decade ago that the cost to refine 1 gallon of diesel is about 85% of the cost to refine 1 gallon of gas. I think some jurisdictions tax diesel less. So diesel should be much more cost effective since they generally get better mpg. But I know in California, the stations in the city mark up the diesel to where it costs more per gallon. Out on the open road though, the truck stops have diesel for less than what you can get gasoline for.

Interesting idea to not buy the diesels so as to force the mfr to do more ev. I will have to think on that one some.

 

[adric22]

You know, I see people posting all over the internet on places like youtube or comment areas of news stories about hybrids or electric cars. One of the common themes is something to the effect of "Don't waste your money on a hybrid or EV, get a diesel."

They seem to believe I would be buying an EV either because I'm a treehugger or trying to be a penny pincher. They totally fail to grasp that driving an EV is a better experience than a gasoline car and if anything I feel like diesel is even worse. Its kind of like the difference between riding in a prop plane with a radial engine or riding in a jet.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

They seem to believe I would be buying an EV either because I'm a treehugger or trying to be a penny pincher. They totally fail to grasp that driving an EV is a better experience than a gasoline car and if anything I feel like diesel is even worse. Its kind of like the difference between riding in a prop plane with a radial engine or riding in a jet.

I bought and owned a 2002 VW Golf TDI specifically because its a great experience. Much better driving experience for me than a Prius. I enjoy responsive vehicles. The high torque of the diesel is addicting. No need to downshift, no lack of power on the expressway. Quick torque all the way.
I've been test driving gas ICE vehicles the last few weeks and am generally flustered at how little torque many have at low RPM. Forces the transmission to hunt around for the right gear to downshift to. In some cases I've forgotten that I'm flooring the throttle by the time it finally decides what gear to get into and start moving, always with big commotion of a high revving engine. In contrast the diesel has the power to pass at a good clip even at low RPM.

Its the same reason I enjoy driving the LEAF. No downshifting. No long process to determine the gear to be in. Instead, instant torque. It just goes when you press the go pedal.

Even my 2002 diesel was relatively quiet and not obviously dirty once warmed up. A very far cry from the 80s GM diesel cars.

I've test driven current generation diesels. In comparison, they seem amazingly clean, extremely quiet and substantially more powerful than my diesel.

I know of no reason why current diesels should have shorter longevity. The prime innovation vs. 80s diesels is the high pressure injector pump which allows the computer to control ignition timing. Maybe the pump might fail some day, but the engine itself doesn't seem inherently less reliable.

I don't know the nuances of the pollution emitted vs. ICE but they're lots of fun to drive, especially with a manual transmission, nothing like the 80s diesels.