Dispelling Myths about EVs' Envirnomental Impact

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Assaf

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 21, 2013
Messages
60
Getting a Nissan Leaf in 2012 was almost a no-brainer for us. Despite being EV-uninitiated, scientific and general knowledge, plus inquiries with Seattle City Light about their grid (done when we pondered installing solar), made the environmental calculation clear-cut. Therefore, the persistent controversy, especially this year, about EVs' environmental footprint surprised me. So I delved deeper into source material - various articles and life-cycle analyses (LCAs) of the EV. I shared my results in two Daily Kos blog posts: one regarding GHG footprint, and one regarding other environmental impacts. You are welcome to read the complete posts - but here is a summary.

The GHG (greenhouse-gas) question is more well-defined. I've learned fairly quickly that despite conflicting narratives, all recent LCAs peg a Leaf-like compact EV's average GHG emission over the first battery-pack's life somewhere between equivalence to a conventional (Prius-like) compact hybrid's, and ~20%-30% smaller. Moreover, all LCAs agree that the magnitude of local variations is huge due to different electricity-grid mixes. The gap between different authors' estimates is due mostly to 2 factors:

- Estimates of battery-production emissions vary widely, between 5 and 22 kgCO2/kg-battery. the Climate Central report took the 22kg figure, yielding a huge 5.2 metric tons CO2 initial deficit for the Leaf. The 2013 EPA report took the 5kg figure, resulting in a 4x smaller battery-pack footprint (more precisely, the EPA unlike Climate Central estimated the 5 kg/kg via their own research). The EPA report, and also a battery-specific analysis from Dunn et al. at the Argonne National Labs (who obtained similar values to the EPA) carefully discuss and explain the discrepancies, and their arguments for taking the lower number are rather convincing. The 22kg/kg number comes from an older and more simplistic study, so its current reliability is somewhere between "questionable" and "debunked".

- Only the EPA study incorporates the impact of off-peak charging, which is dramatic for coal-based grids. Once a reasonable amount of off-peak charging is assumed, EVs have a lower ongoing-use footprint (i.e., excluding production and end-of-life) than the best of ICE hybrids, everywhere including coal-dominated regions. As can be seen in this EPA ongoing-use footprint calculator. This means that the only question is how many miles it takes EVs to recuperate the battery-production deficit - whose estimated magnitude, as said above, varies greatly between authors.

There was one teeny point that no LCA dared touch: the GHG impact of Oil-related militarization, war, spills and disasters. Which means that Oil gets a "free GHG ride", for precisely those ill-effects that make it so unpopular. After a lot of digging, I found one scientific article from 2010 tackling the military/conflict part of the issue. Based on their results, I dared to add a 7% Oil-Troubles overhead for each ICE mile driven (on top of ~30% average overhead tacked on by standard analyses for all other well-to-pump emissions).

Amortizing a compact EV's battery over 60k miles (the current range-warranty offered by Nissan), I concluded that 2013-model compact EVs emit on average about 10%-60% less lifetime GHGs than 2013-model compact ICE hybrids, and 30%-70% less than 2013-model ordinary compacts. The larger savings are achieved on cleaner grids, and assuming the EPA/ANL battery numbers (I allowed for a range of 5-12 kg/kg in my calculations). The Tesla S, too, whose battery can be safely assumed to live at least 100k miles on average, comes out distinctly greener over 100k miles than the best luxury hybrid, almost completely reversing what the Climate Central report had claimed.

Furthermore, EVs are slated to reduce their footprint much faster than ICE, because they benefit from multiple reduction mechanisms: vehicle efficiency improvements, battery-life improvements, grid improvements and production-stage improvements (the ANL study found that recycling the lithium-manganese compound can save nearly half the production GHG).

All these numbers are very approximate and indicate the average footprint. One should keep in mind that the difference between individual usage patterns, even of the same vehicle model in the same geographical region, can easily lead to a 20% gap in footprint. Furthermore, LCA as a whole is a young science, and ICE cars have been given much less LCA scrutiny than EVs. For example, I found no reference about the GHG overhead due to ongoing ICE maintenance; presumably it is not large.

The second post dealt with other environmental impacts. Here I remind readers that the 800-pound gorilla in the room is EVs' huge potential in ending Oil's monopoly over transportation. Oil and Oil politics are arguably the worst offender in the gang of climate criminals. What enables this misbehavior is that in people's minds as well as in economic calculations, Oil is still seen as having no alternative. So shattering Oil's monopoly is of immense importance. As to EVs and other pollution: there are issues to work on in the EV production cycle, such as acidification, but it is fairly benign compared to ICE tailpipe emissions and to the wells-to-pump Oil damages.

Finally, I confront the Ozzie Zehner style social criticism, namely: 1. that EVs are siphoning off public money better spent elsewhere, to subsidize vanity cars for "the very rich" (as he literally calls us), and 2. that together with other "green gadgets" such as rooftop-solar, EVs instil the illusion that climate change can be averted at the flip of some technological switch, rather than by doing the hard work of social change.

I expose Zehner's text as a classic hit piece, serving to incite and vilify rather than to inform and educate. His scientific content on pollution is sketchy at best; even he doesn't dare say EVs' GHG footprint is worse than ICE, and he nearly ignores that topic altogether. Chatter about "very rich" and vanity, which takes up about half the text, is pure demagoguery. I handle that in my post, and it's not worth repeating here.

The only argument carrying merit is that EVs do not move us away from cars and towards transit, cycling and walkability. That is correct, and we should all keep in mind this limitation of EVs. Progress on EVs should never hold up progress on making our society less car-dependent. However, EV technology per se is not anti-transit. I bring examples for exciting new electric-bus developments already being implemented by transit systems across the world (examples I've learned about from insideevs.com).

More generally, if the environmental movement cannot learn to walk and chew gum at the same time, then we are all doomed anyway. It is possible to work on transit, cycling and walkability infrastructure, and simultaneously work on moving motorized transport from Oil to electric - without one arm trying to slash the other off.
 
Nice details. Sorry, I've got it much simpler. I just got my city electric bill and they are required by the state to disclose the percentage of energy coming from all sources. Mine is 88% hydro, 9% nuclear, 2% coal, and <1% everything else. Although I've always suspected as much, now I have the documentation and planning on telling everyone that asks about the Leaf.
 
Unfortunately, that is not going to be the case for pretty much everyone outside of Washington...

Reddy said:
Nice details. Sorry, I've got it much simpler. I just got my city electric bill and they are required by the state to disclose the percentage of energy coming from all sources. Mine is 88% hydro, 9% nuclear, 2% coal, and <1% everything else.
 
Or you can just avoid arguing with people over the environmental benefits of EVs. Lets face it, anyone who seriously wants to argue with you about EVs being more polluting than a gas car is first and foremost not an environmentalist. Arguing with them is just about as pointless as arguing one persons religion over another. No matter what you say, they'll always believe they are right. But second of all, even if by some miracle you manage to convince them that EVs are cleaner, you still haven't achieved much because of the first problem, they aren't an environmentalist to begin with. So they still don't want one.

The only way to convince these people that an EV is right for them is to stop pushing the environmental message to them. 95% to 99% of the public just don't care enough about the environment to make big purchasing decisions based on that emotion. Instead, get them into an EV (preferably NOT an i-Miev) and let them see how they drive, how much money and time they can save, etc.
 
TomT said:
Unfortunately, that is not going to be the case for pretty much everyone outside of Washington...

Reddy said:
Nice details. Sorry, I've got it much simpler. I just got my city electric bill and they are required by the state to disclose the percentage of energy coming from all sources. Mine is 88% hydro, 9% nuclear, 2% coal, and <1% everything else.
Agreed. There may be a few similar places such as Canada and upper New England. Interestingly, I'm surrounded by 5 GW wind, four major dams within 50 mi, probably 10 within 100 mi, and of course Grand Coulee and Bonneville are the biggest but probably 150 mi away. We have much better solar resources here than any other part of WA state, but the ONLY installer is located 150 mi away! I looked into solar, but with our $0.06/KWh electricity (no TOU available), disincentives in the city (extra annual cost to net meter and difficult permitting), and the need to pay your installer's hotel/travel costs, it just doesn't pencil out. Instead, I've focused on efficiency and demand reduction. I think I'm down to around 10,000 KWh per year for a 3000 sq.ft house built in the 1960's (and that includes electric heat via a 2nd 150 amp feed). When the old electric water heater dies, I'll add a heat pump and maybe try to something with solar pre-heating. Even solar hot water wasn't really cost effective because of the lack of competition. If I was a bit more handy or had more time, I might try that.
 
adric22 said:
...The only way to convince these people that an EV is right for them is to stop pushing the environmental message to them. 95% to 99% of the public just don't care enough about the environment to make big purchasing decisions based on that emotion..
Absolutely. I'm not sure I've ever discussed CO2 emissions with anyone locally (only here on MNL). And for me the truth is I would be much more "green" if I continued to bicycle as much as I used to. Decades ago I averaged 200 mi per week year round and now I'm lucky to get 200 mi per month in the summer. Unfortunately, the old bones don't really enjoy bicycling in the snow and ice as much as the young bones.

I try to keep the message simple and in my order of preference:
1) Quiet and smooth. No engine reving and herky-jerky start/stops.
2) Pre-warmed in the garage via timer/phone/internet. No de-icing required.
3) No wasted time on trips to the gas station. I figure I save 10-20 hr per year.
4) 1/10th the cost of my ICE (due to cheap electricity and expensive ICE costs).
5) EVs provide the best in-town driving experience which is 99% of my time.
6) Charge at home at night (mostly I don't even worry about this, plugging in 3-4 times per week)
7) Environmental? Huh, what's that? No car will save the environment. For that matter, nothing a person does will "save" the environment. Everything we do (except perhaps fall into a hole and get turned into compost) will consume resources.

The biggest stumbling block seems to be "I can't drive it 200 mi to Seattle". Unfortunately, I can't seem to get traction with the idea that there are better tools (rental, ICE) for that job and almost everyone I know has multiple vehicles which can do it better. For some reason, people are stubborn and can't admit that another solution will work just fine, and in this case, much better in town. They still cling to their believe that my ICE gets 45 mpg (even though that is a different specialized eco-model that only gets that during specific hypermiling conditions, and their real effective city driving is less than 20 mpg).
 
Assaf said:
The only argument carrying merit is that EVs do not move us away from cars and towards transit, cycling and walkability. That is correct, and we should all keep in mind this limitation of EVs.
I heartily disagree with the manner this point has been expressed.

That's not because I disagree that more walking and cycling would be good - I have argued the same here and asked why the Gov gives subsidies for EVs but not for someone simply moving closer to their work?

The reason I disagree with you is because it is a flat-out anti-car point. It's taken mankind 100,000 years or more since they developed speech to conceptualise ideas to end up with technological devices like cars. I have NO interest in imagining an EV should in some way be a step towards getting rid of cars and back towards whatever past some folks think we should be moving back to. That seems a ridiculous logical misdirection.

So I have no interest in being 'moved away from cars'. I will use a car when it is the best tool to accomplish the task I wish it to perform. As I would with a cycle or a bus or a train, whatever. The 'purpose', if you will, of an EV is that it delivers a 'new tool' to the mix of tools available for transport.

It is also, IMHO, erroneous to look at the CO2 benefits of EVs in the here-and-now. It is a new technology, and like any investment there may be overheads when things start up. In this case, establishing the technology will lead to developments in renewable and nuclear powered electricity (because it drives a need) and one can anticipate improvements in lifecycle CO2 emission from improved manufacturing. So there is a certain myopia if one simply looks at the CO2 benefits of EVs today. They need to be looked at in the context of energy sourcing and security in the long run, which will be a scenario of steadily decreasing reliance on fossil fuels.

Promoting that possibility, of reducing CO2, is an investment in reducing CO2 which may not be immediate for the particular car you chose to buy and drive. But unless that is kicked off, unless folks take the first steps for future steps to follow, then it won't happen and we'll be stuck with the same-old energy mix. This point always seems to be overlooked in any CO2-based studies.
 
Assaf said:
Here I remind readers that the 800-pound gorilla in the room is EVs' huge potential in ending Oil's monopoly over transportation. Oil and Oil politics are arguably the worst offender in the gang of climate criminals. What enables this misbehavior is that in people's minds as well as in economic calculations, Oil is still seen as having no alternative. So shattering Oil's monopoly is of immense importance. As to EVs and other pollution: there are issues to work on in the EV production cycle, such as acidification, but it is fairly benign compared to ICE tailpipe emissions and to the wells-to-pump Oil damages.
Who is this Oil dude?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Qfbrc1jdo[/youtube]
 
Wow, about 5 responders and 7 different POVs... EV enthusiasts seem to be a diverse bunch :D

@adric22, @Reddy: I would wish that only global-warming deniers hate EVs... I've learned the hard way it is not true. If you've never encountered the greenie anti-EV stand, you can google the name of Ozzie Zehner who's mentioned in the post (or you can go to my longer posts and get links to his "Unclean at any Speed" hit piece from 3 months ago, a text read by perhaps millions). Zehner is not just anti-EV, he's anti-green-gadget in general. And he's not alone - EV-skeptic, EV-suspicious and even anti-EV is quite common in the back-to-nature and socialist-leaning sectors of the environmental movement. I have nothing against these people, but will they leave the EV alone please?

As we all know from life experience, people are quite adept at warping the facts around their opinions when they *really* feel an emotional need to do so. I'm guessing this is what happens to those anti-EV environmentalists. Which means as you suggest, that the hard-core among them might be beyond reach anyway (btw, I sent my articles to Zehner himself, and he sounded less combative than in his texts).

But meanwhile they - together with the outright deniers - make enough "EVs are fake Green" noises to confuse a lot of people in the middle who have little prior view or knowledge. This is why I thought it important to research the point. Besides, given the acrimony I wanted to make sure I know what I'm talking about on this issue.

@Reddy: sorry, our #1 and #2 reasons to go EV are global warming and Oil (yeah, that's Satan from the clip). Yes, EVs are also better cars in a technological sense, but we've never been early adopters of novel technologies. We made an exception for this one. I know there are millions of people like us - and many of them are confused enough by the anti-EV spins, to be hesitant about getting one.

Your list is more appropriate for car aficionados. It is legit as a consumer motivation - but I doubt that it's justifiable for the Federal government to give $7.5k to each person who wants a smoother ride or a remote-warmed car :lol: As to #7 on your list, that's the difference between quantitative and qualitative. Qualitatively a car is a car, but if our national fleet emits 60% less GHG and consumes 90% less oil, it will make a *huge* difference.

@donald: Gee, I really hope that the crowning achievement of 100k years of human evolution is not The Car, even an EV ;)

More seriously, if all of Humanity starts driving as much as Americans (and this process was already underway before both the economy and climate-awareness have slowed it down) - then, to paraphrase James Hansen, it is game over for the planet and for Humanity's sheer survival. So yes, we need to move away from the car, not in the sense of dumping the technology but in the sense of driving less. As of now, American mainstream culture is anti-transit and surely anti-walking. That has got to change. That's what I meant.

Other than that, I totally agre with you regarding the idiocy of nickeling and diming an emerging technology's instant footprint. If you read my full posts you'll see this message conveyed multiple times. As hinted above, I also point out that EVs are almost sure to improve much faster than ICE vehicles over the coming decades. But I didn't want to come off as someone looking for excuses for the EV. No excuses are needed: the best state-of-the-science research indicates that EVs are already lower-footprint than ICE hybrids, even at this stage.
 
Assaf said:
@donald: Gee, I really hope that the crowning achievement of 100k years of human evolution is not The Car, even an EV ;)
Why not? I mean, the degree of technology and science necessary for cars, the degree of international co-operative organisation required to make it, and the benefits to society that personal transportation brings especially in 'bringing people together'. I can't think of a better symbol of our progress, actually, that encompasses so many of the advanced skills modern humans have accomplished.

Whether you would agree or otherwise if it is a good example, it is clearly a demonstration of progress from 100,000 years ago, so what's with so much effort towards trying to go backwards!?

I don't recall who coined the phrase, but it might be appropriate here; "We're just monkeys with car keys!".
 
Reddy said:
Mine is 88% hydro, 9% nuclear, 2% coal, and <1% everything else.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to raise the bar:

2012: 97.6% hydro, 2.2% nuclear, 0.2% thermal.


However, the nuclear plant is now closed and thermal hasn't increased.

A significant amount of this clean energy used to be exported to the states, but the buyers are supposedly finding it cheaper to burn natural gas nowadays.


I pay 0.061$/kWh, but there are no off-peak rates and 15% tax is added. With a surplus of clean energy and gas being over $5/gallon, you'd think EV's would be more popular here, but manufacturers don't push them since they get no CARB/ZEV credits.
 
I think an issue that is often overlooked is how EV "emissions" are emitted. Concentration of NOx and VOCs cause ozone formation, which is usually the most prevelant air pollution. ICE cars (and hybrids as well) emit those chemicals in dense areas, which does not allow the chemcials to disperse before the formation of O3.

Grid power (i.e. power plants) are usually not in city centers but are near rural and exurb areas. Despite even cacluating the additional efficiencies of a large generator versus a smaller ICE engine, the emissions produced (even if coal) allow ozone forming chemicals to disperse into the atmosphere and become inert instead of forming 03 in the areas were the plants are located.

So the additional capacity of a rural or exurb area to absorb and property dissipate the pollution is a very large benefit. If you could, in theory, take that same pollution to power your EV and placed it instead in an urbanized center, the same pounds of pollution would have a greater cascading effect (exponential curve) and cause more overal pollution than if it was emitted in a rural area.

As for the transit isssue - it is in fact a real issue we are already trying to address. Transit CAN provide three benfits over a regular car:

1) Decrease in travel time
2) Decrease in cost
3) Decrease in stress

From ridership surveys, #3, while a good benefit is actually not a consideration for transit users for taking transit, only a side effect (for those electing to take transit versus those that must rely on transit, i.e. zero car households). So transit MUST provide either #1 or #2. If you hit both, the system is at the best target operating efficiency but few places can provide both. If transit cannot provide either one, ridership plummets. Here in DFW travel by car almost always beats transit in travel times (except in some very specific extreme cases). Its the monetary cost that attracts ridership. But for EV onwers (and even plug in or hybrid owners), the cost to drive becomes cheaper than taking transit, and therefore transit is not a viable option (i.e. why would someone take the train if it cost more and takes a longer time?).

This could have a reverse effect on traffic as the increase in fuel efficient vehicles convert people to non-transit use (or take away people that would have been transit converts) increase VMT on roadways and increasing congestion quicker than predicted increasing the cost of congestion ($ lost) and increasing pollution (idle ICE cars produce 10 times the amount of pollution), basically you have more cars on the road it creates more congestion and therefore more pollution.

No obviously, these curves are hard to meat and it would take a larger EV adoption, but there is some concern and we are running many traffic model runs with vehicle mixes to see where the curve hits. In fact, though, the curve ends up being more of a modified plateau. More EV adption - less transit - causes more congestion - transit becomes quicker - people go back to transit. So we are spending time on this to see how EVs affect transit.
 
@Pipcecil,

Thanks for a very thoughtful description of individuals' "incentive space" w.r.t. transit vs. ICE vs. EVs.

I would like to add that when you list benefits, you're talking in the individual short-term, narrow-sense, Orthodox-game-theory sense, right?

Because obviously there are tangible societal benefits to transit as well (CO2 reduction, tailpipe pollution reduction, economic efficiency improvements).

My own forays into game theory have taught me that individuals are always cognizant of social, fairness or (more generally) greater-good calculations as well, and often the latter are the ones that sway the decision - especially if the narrow-individualistic ones are close to a wash, or if the narrow individual gain comes at a drastic greater-good price. This is one big reason why Orthodox game theory (which assumes that narrow individual considerations will *always* trump all others) so often fails in predicting even simple experiments.

I was wondering: when you say "we run simulations" - do you work for an organization that does these studies? Or is it a hobby?

Assaf
 
Assaf said:
Because obviously there are tangible societal benefits to transit as well (CO2 reduction, tailpipe pollution reduction, economic efficiency improvements).
whoa there! Obviously? Really? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Firstly, there is nothing inevitably 'more efficient' in mass transportation vehicles compared with lots of smaller personal vehicles. Especially with electric vehicles, as VW has shown with their teeny and ultra-efficient one and two seater prototypes, these use comparative energy per passenger mile to a loaded bus. But the difference is that the bus isn't full all the time.




[EDIT: the following was a misjudged comment that I apologies for and would happily delete, if folks are happy it won't disrupt the other responses. Please don't read it. :oops: ]



I hate buses, trains and planes. I would consider it terribly rude and thoughtless of me were I to force others to experience my body odours, strange habits and breathe in the same air and sputum droplets I have just breathed out. Likewise, vice-versa of course.

It is a vile loathsome experience sitting next to strangers whilst being forced to perceive the anal aromas of the standing occupants whose lower orifices now height-match the upper olfactory orifices of those seated. I would shoot myself rather than have to subject myself to that every working day. And I rather think many others have done exactly that, for those reasons.

Public transport, that is, without private carriages/suites, should be banned as an indignity to humanity.

I see nothing arguably more efficient about a bus coming juddering to a halt just to pick up one smelly flea-infested tramp and his dog (and nor do I have any warm regard for when such a duo waft past me in the aisle) compared with what could be a series of personal one or two seater EV pods, in close quarters line astern under computer control, and instead of everyone stopping the pod of the one who wants to get out of the convoy is simply directed off into a side-branch of a virtual track. And those who want to join a convoy press a button and if one is coming by soon then it'll tag along behind them.

I'd like to see some evidence that mass transport vehicles (that can only drop you off where you don't actually want to be) are more efficient than a series of private cars could be, if the right technology was in place (that can take you to the door of the place you want to go).
 
donald said:
whoa there! Obviously? Really? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Firstly, there is nothing inevitably 'more efficient' in mass transportation vehicles compared with lots of smaller personal vehicles. Especially with electric vehicles, as VW has shown with their teeny and ultra-efficient one and two seater prototypes, these use comparative energy per passenger mile to a loaded bus. But the difference is that the bus isn't full all the time.

I hate buses, trains and planes. I would consider it terribly rude and thoughtless of me were I to force others to experience my body odours, strange habits and breath in the same air and sputum droplets I have just breathed out. Likewise, vice-versa of course.

It is a vile loathsome experience sitting next to strangers whilst being forced to perceive the anal aromas of the standing occupants whose lower orifices now height-match the upper olfactory orifices of those seated. I would shoot myself rather than have to subject myself to that every working day. And I rather think many others have done exactly that, for those reasons.

Public transport, that is, without private carriages/suites, should be banned as an indignity to humanity.

I see nothing arguably more efficient about a bus coming juddering to a halt just to pick up one smelly flea-infested tramp and his dog (and nor do I have any warm regard for when such a duo waft past me in the aisle) compared with what could be a series of personal one or two seater EV pods, in close quarters line astern under computer control, and instead of everyone stopping the pod of the one who wants to get out of the convoy is simply directed off into a side-branch of a virtual track. And those who want to join a convoy press a button and if one is coming by soon then it'll tag along behind them.

I'd like to see some evidence that mass transport vehicles (that can only drop you off where you don't actually want to be) are more efficient than a series of private cars could be, if the right technology was in place (that can take you to the door of the place you want to go).


I can see why you are objecting. For the record, I saw a bus driver deny entrance to a guy who had peed his pants...so not everyone with strong odors is permitted aboard... :D

However, public transport in the US seems to be mostly a thing for the poor. Get on a bus in Seattle in winter, early in the morning, and you have a lot of homeless people there. And yes, they dont smell nice.

In Europe however, things are different and the efficiency of mass transit is undisputed. I found the mass transit systems in most big German cities flawless, efficient and clean. Since there is no (sub)urban sprawl they usually drop you off within walking distance of your destination. Also, usually, due to the ridiculous constraints on parking (virtually all spots taken all the time, high cost and vandalism) and chronic congestion by individual traffic (i.e. CARS), public transport in most of Europe is cheaper and faster.
 
klapauzius said:
However, public transport in the US seems to be mostly a thing for the poor. Get on a bus in Seattle in winter, early in the morning, and you have a lot of homeless people there. And yes, they dont smell nice.

In Europe however, things are different and the efficiency of mass transit is undisputed. I found the mass transit systems in most big German cities flawless, efficient and clean. Since there is no (sub)urban sprawl they usually drop you off within walking distance of your destination. Also, usually, due to the ridiculous constraints on parking (virtually all spots taken all the time, high cost and vandalism) and chronic congestion by individual traffic (i.e. CARS), public transport in most of Europe is cheaper and faster.
+100

Klap nailed it. My intro to 'mass transit' consisted of a few trips in Michigan and Wisconsin by Greyhound. After landing in Europe for what turned out to be a too-short seven year stay, I didn't have a good feeling when I landed in London with instructions to take a subway to catch a train and later to catch a bus. With suitcases. After a transatlantic flight and being awake for more than 30 hours. That trip was a serious shock to my belief system - clean, fast, efficient, on-time and filled with folks tolerant of bleary-eyed Yanks that don't know which coin is 50 pence.

Since then, I enjoyed the London tubes, busses, intercity electric trains, train trips to Scotland, London to Paris by train and hovercraft, bus and ferry to Holland, the Berlin subways, and train travel in Germany. There are a lot of reasons to miss Europe, but walkable cities plus buses, tubes, and trains are high on the list.

The US can do a lot better than cars.
 
Reddy said:
I try to keep the message simple and in my order of preference:
1) Quiet and smooth. No engine reving and herky-jerky start/stops.
2) Pre-warmed in the garage via timer/phone/internet. No de-icing required.
3) No wasted time on trips to the gas station. I figure I save 10-20 hr per year.
4) 1/10th the cost of my ICE (due to cheap electricity and expensive ICE costs).
5) EVs provide the best in-town driving experience which is 99% of my time.
6) Charge at home at night (mostly I don't even worry about this, plugging in 3-4 times per week)
7) Environmental? Huh, what's that? No car will save the environment. For that matter, nothing a person does will "save" the environment. Everything we do (except perhaps fall into a hole and get turned into compost) will consume resources.

Reddy, consider making your list into a "Best Talking Points" thread or the like!
I'd add:
* Forty or more miles per dollar gets peoples attention
* The B mode is really good for start & stop traffic -- don't have to cover the brake pedal as much
 
donald said:
Assaf said:
Because obviously there are tangible societal benefits to transit as well (CO2 reduction, tailpipe pollution reduction, economic efficiency improvements).
whoa there! Obviously? Really? How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Probably by comparing those items in currently existing vehicles, not some future vehicles that may or may not come to pass.

I hate buses, trains and planes. I would consider it terribly rude and thoughtless of me were I to force others to experience my body odours, strange habits and breathe in the same air and sputum droplets I have just breathed out. Likewise, vice-versa of course.

It is a vile loathsome experience sitting next to strangers whilst being forced to perceive the anal aromas of the standing occupants whose lower orifices now height-match the upper olfactory orifices of those seated. I would shoot myself rather than have to subject myself to that every working day. And I rather think many others have done exactly that, for those reasons.

Public transport, that is, without private carriages/suites, should be banned as an indignity to humanity.
It appears that the rest of your response is not related to societal benefit, but to your own personal preferences. However, note that most of humanity does not have these kinds of choices available to them.
 
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