EVs with Thermal Management System (TMS)

[aphysician]

EVs with Thermal Management System (TMS) for use in frigid climate

Hello everyone, this is a great forum for EV owners and prospective owners. I joined the forum for some help in my decision to become an EV owner. I live in Michigan, and didn't realize weather will be such a big factor. I had decided on Leaf, but considering my circumstances it may not be a good fit unless few things are sorted out. Please don't misunderstand me, Leaf is a great car for every climate it just won't fit my requirements. During that discussion, I was educated that EVs with TMS has less deterioration in the winter climate. I couldn't find a post addressing what vehicles are available on the market with TMS. I thought I will list the vehicles that I know, and feel free to update me with new vehicles. We will keep the list updated for prospective owners. Please first review my limitations/requirements, and why Leaf couldn't satisfy those. See also the entire post as below if interested in more information.

Leaf - Range in cold climate and Buying/Leasing in Michigan
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12621" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Limitations for EV use
- Frigid climate with Temprature below 30 F for 4 months, with frequent dips into 20s
- Snow covered roads for commute
- Frequent high wind days
- Daily commute of over 50 miles RT
- More than 50% on highways (mine is around 66%)
- L2 charging overnight at home only, not available at work
- Cold soaking in parking lot for over 10 hours and sometimes overnight
- Inability to trickle charge at workplace (to prevent cold soaking and preheat the car for return journey)

If you have similar restrictions then, I have come to conclusion after reviewing everyone's response that a reasonable range to expect is no more than 60 miles. The battery capacity loss in winter is around 20% or so for above temperatures, however this is temporary and you would enjoy the high mileage again in summer. It's just that Leaf won't suit your commute in winter. Having an EV with TMS will be better in such winter climates.

Here are the EVs that I know that have TMS. Feel free to suggest more as new models are launched, I will keep the list updated, for few of us lucky to be blessed with this wonderful weather.
(1) Tesla Model S
(2) Toyota RAV 4 EV
(3) Chevrolet Spark EV
(4) Ford Focus EV
? Mercedes B-Class ED (Tesla soured battery)

 

[Zythryn]

Hey there!
Just to clarify, there is no battery capacity loss in cold (well, a tiny bit, but very minor).
The range loss is simply because the car needs more power to move it through colder air, and more energy is used to heat the car.
TMS equipped vehicles will also suffer loss of range in cold weather due to denser air and heating needs.

What I would suggest is either a BEV with 125 mile range or a Volt.
Currently the only BEVs with that range would be the Rav4ev (service outside of CA is an issue) or the 60kWh Model S (cost could be any issue).
The Volt would have the advantage of the gas engine backup so you could get first hand experience with how the winter affects the EV range. A 2-3 year lease would gie you practical experience, and give time for the tech to improve a bit.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Hey there!
Just to clarify, there is no battery capacity loss in cold (well, a tiny bit, but very minor).
The range loss is simply because the car needs more power to move it through colder air, and more energy is used to heat the car.
TMS equipped vehicles will also suffer loss of range in cold weather due to denser air and heating needs.

Wow!!! Not quite... Actually almost completely backwards!! All vehicles (planes, trains, cars, motorcycles) experience the same effects of changes in air density. The BATTERY in a TMS car will be warmed and experience very little losses from cold as opposed to the battery in a LEAF that has no TMS whatsoever.

Please see the Range Chart linked to in my signature line and read the notes to learn how temperature and air densities affect range.

To the original OP, virtually EVERY electric car has TMS except the LEAF.

 

[aphysician]

@ zythryn

Thank you for your reply. I agree most of range is lost in battling the elements. Though TMS prevents cold soaking of the battery when parked in cold. I am looking into the vehicles with the characteristics you mentioned. Volt is too tight for me, I drive a Golf, and space is even less than that. However very popular in MI, i see many each day and have seen Leaf very rarely. I will certainly look into RAV 4 and Model S, however cost is an issue for Model S. Let's what Elon announces in next press meets. If all fails then Volt will be the best compromise. Thanks again.

 

[TonyWilliams]

To the original OP, virtually EVERY electric car has TMS except the LEAF.

 

[aphysician]

@ Tony

Thank you for the clarification. If every EV has it, then what's Nissan's rationale of not including one in Leaf, any ideas? They will just loose market share in cold climates. This is like handing over most populated areas of USA to GM on a silver platter. They would just remain confined to moderate climates, as even hotter climates are seeing faster degradation.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-ceo-rips-nissans-battery-technology-says-its-primitive-50527.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://gigaom.com/2010/08/05/tesla-ceo-nissans-leaf-battery-is-primitive/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/25/is-the-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-under-engineered/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously, this hasn't worked out well for Nissan in hot climates (e.g. Phoenix). I and others have felt that that if the Leaf has no TMS, then it shouldn't be offered for sale in Phoenix and other hot climates. Make it lease only there.

Even if a Phoenician gets their battery replaced under the newly announced capacity warranty, they're going to be SOL after 5 years/60K miles. We still don't know the pack replacement cost.

 

[planet4ever]

If you are worried about cold soaking during the day, a TMS is not going to help you unless you have a way to plug in at work. It will just drain some of the precious energy from the battery, leaving you with even less range. Yes, it is true that a cold battery cannot hold as much energy, but if you take a half-full battery and cool it, it will not lose energy. Instead it will just report that it is now more than half full! Cold soaking matters when charging the car, but not much when it is just sitting there. (Caveats: 1.The LEAF does have a battery warmer to keep it from freezing at extreme temperatures. 2. You will have less regen with a very cold battery.)

I would not recommend a LEAF for a 60 mile winter commute in your climate unless you either have some guaranteed way (even 120v) to charge at work or have reliable access to a Quick Charge station between home and work. It's not a matter of TMS, but just of range.

I know how you feel about how tight the Volt feels. Back in 2009 and 2010 I was an excited advocate until I sat in one. Then I cooled off quickly. It's really more of a sports car, and people who are into sports cars like it's feel. As Zythryn suggested, your only real alternatives right now are a Volt or Tesla Model S. If neither works for you, you may have to wait.

Ray

 

[Pipcecil]

TMS adds weight and price and Nissan didn't want either of thsoe. Look at a ford focus electric vs a leaf ~$7,000 more and a smaller car. Nissan hedge bets that a lower selling price was more important. Tony is right, every EV out there has some type of TMS either liquid or air. The leaf is the only one that does not.

There is a difference in range which I can tell with my wife's volt and my leaf. The leaf looses ~15-20% range during cold weather (depends on many factors) while the Volt looses ~10-15% range based on numerous drives in both. The range % difference expands as it gets colder, here in Texas this is about as far difference as it gets. I am guessing Nissan just decided that % range difference or % battery protection wasn't worth the % increase in price.

 

[Zythryn]

Hey there!
Just to clarify, there is no battery capacity loss in cold (well, a tiny bit, but very minor).
The range loss is simply because the car needs more power to move it through colder air, and more energy is used to heat the car.
TMS equipped vehicles will also suffer loss of range in cold weather due to denser air and heating needs.

Wow!!! Not quite... Actually almost completely backwards!! All vehicles (planes, trains, cars, motorcycles) experience the same effects of changes in air density...

"Almost backwards"? You pretty much said exactly what I did. However, you did so much more clearly, thanks

As for the capacity of the battery in the cold, yes that goes down, but I think it is a very small loss. The only measurements I have for this is the Rated range shown on our Model S, which, in the winter shows a loss in rated range of only 1-3 miles.
Of course, the projected range drops by a lot more. But that is due to the increased energy it has taken to move the car through the colder/denser air, increased HVAC use (both for battery pack and cabin) and increased rolling resistance.

 

[Zythryn]

If you are worried about cold soaking during the day, a TMS is not going to help you unless you have a way to plug in at work. It will just drain some of the precious energy from the battery, leaving you with even less range...

I thought this too originally. However, it seems to not be the case, or perhaps very rarely the case with the Model S.
The TMS actually does not run in low temps unless the car is plugged in.
However, this behavior would depend completely on ow the TMS is programmed. So while your statement about it draining energy while parked unplugged may be true in some situations, it isn't true in all situations.

 

[RegGuheert]

The TMS actually does not run in low temps unless the car is plugged in.

I think that depends upon the temperature. There seems to be quite a bit of evidence that it kicks on below 20F, which is not particularly low for some parts of the country.

 

[aphysician]

@ cwerdna

Elon was right to predict that far ahead. I don't understand the rationale of not including one, when everybody else has it. Must be French employees in Renault-Nissan, just joking. I read and heard about heat not being a great friend of EV batteries, but more so in Leaf's case. So basically frigid climates and extremely hot climates are out of equation for Nissan. Seriously dumb. They should have battery which copes well with all temperature extremes, users esp who love your product should not subjected to replacement costs, when there is an inherent fault with battery architecture and one that can be fixed.

 

[aphysician]

Hi Ray

Thank you for your reply and further explanation on TMS and Leaf range. I will sure contact parking administration at my work for a parking spot near an outlet, however not hoping much as it is an ancient structure. It seems best way is to arrange a backup of some sort, either higher capacity as in RAV 4/Model S or ICE backup as in Volt. There are some charging stations on way back, but they are pretty close to house, who likes to wait for 30 mins to get home after a long day but certainly helpful in a bind. I will certainly try Volt before zeroing on Model S. Atleast lease is much cheaper than Model S, Spark EV will be interesting as well.

Hari

 

[aphysician]

@ Pipcecil

Thank you for your reply. Your observation is right, I do notice the difference now after comparison. Sticker shock always plays some role in adoption of a new product. I think Nissan has now well established themselves as leader in EV. They can afford to offer a version with TMS for people living in extreme climate and folks living in moderate climate can just save money on TMS by buying a car without one. They will still be cheaper than competition. Hope it changes soon, or they will hurt their reputation in these climates, which could be expensive to fix. I certainly need to look for EV with some backup, either higher capacity (RAV 4/Model S) or ICE backup (Volt).

 

[aphysician]

@ RegGuheert

Thank you for your reply. That would be the scenario for 4 months in Michigan during winter months. I am alright if the temp is over 32 F, as even on those days temp dips below 20s in night. If TMS kicks in below 20 F to prevent cold soaking and keep battery warm so it doesn't loose all energy, even at the expense of some range, then that would be very helpful, esp in EVs with bigger range. The whole point is to have a TMS, programming is just a software update away. I like my odds better with an EV with TMS.

 

[Stanton]

This is a topic that will ALWAYS generate lots of opinions, no matter how many times it's been discussed before!

On the one hand: if the Leaf had more (absolute) battery capacity, we wouldn't be talking about how much range we give up in the winter/with age/etc. (because there would be plenty to burn).
On the other hand: if Nissan didn't decide to build the Leaf "as is" (no TMS), I may still have been waiting to buy my first BEV (instead of enjoying it for almost 2 years now). A Volt (or something similar) @$40k+ just wasn't as affordable as a Leaf @$30k+ (and remember, Chevy dealers were ADDING to the Volt MSRP at the time I was "mail ordering" my Leaf from Nissan for MSRP).

There are ways to (temporarily) compensate for poor cold weather performance when necessary (like I found the other day in an unusually cold+windy day here in Dallas): SLOW DOWN and lay off the heater. Is it ideal? No, but it works--and tomorrow I'll be driving like "normal" again.

Good luck with your EV search!

 

[aphysician]

Hi Stanton,

Thank you for your reply. I agree Nissan needed different strategy to succeed. They certainly thought differently than Tesla and GM. Nothing helps better than the lower sticker price. Atleast people in moderate weather can enjoy benefits of EVs. As said before, I am just sad to know that Leaf won't fit my requirement, as I was very close to leasing one. Information on this forum has certainly helped me in making my decision, what to expect from Leaf in winter. I wish I had less commute or could take local roads, I would not waited then at all. In my situation, I will need to do that compromise on most days in winter, and that becomes a liability. Nissan will figure out something, they won't give up on so many potential consumers. Until then, I may need bigger capacity EV or ICE backup. Let's see how it goes.

 

[TomT]

I think it was two fold: They didn't originally understand (or care) how bad heat would be with regard to the battery... They didn't want to pay the cost of adding a TMS.

Whatever the reason, they have effectively removed the Leaf from consideration in either very hot or very cold climates. Even in so-called "temperate" climate such as where I live, the lack of TMS has cost me battery capacity... Personally, I will never again consider an EV without TMS. That likely means this is my first and last Nissan EV...

If every EV has it, then what's Nissan's rationale of not including one in Leaf, any ideas?

 

[WetEV]

I don't understand the rationale of not including one{a TMS}, when everybody else has it.

Rational is that having no TMS reduces cost and complexity, and improves results for most people, and especially for those in moderate climates.

Range of outcomes looks something like this:

Hot places (TMS is a major gain, as battery life is horrid.)
Most places (TMS is about breakeven. makes for a cheaper lighter simpler car, lower energy usage. Balanced with reduced battery life. Of course, your battery life will vary.)
Cool places (TMS is a loss. It adds cost, weight, complexity, repair and maintenance cost. Almost no improvement in battery life.)

Where I live, TMS looks like a bad choice. I understand why it is very different in AZ. Places in between, harder to call.

Moving forward, I expect one of the following:
1) TMS goes nationwide on all future EVs.
2) TMS is an option on some/most/all EVs.
3) TMS mostly goes away, as batteries improve. If you have a 200 mile range most days, only rarely will someone care if that is 150 miles on a bad weather day.