Fed Up with the Tea Party? Need a Laugh?

[AndyH]

Obviously the $7500 tax credit, and the mortgage interest deduction are handouts, but mostly I was referring to recurring handouts.. welfare pmts, public employees, social security, police salaries etc. No sane voter will vote out the politician that puts food on his table. Its inevitable that the system will eventually collapse since its unbalanced.. a much stronger possibility than AGW is real

Herm, if you'll indulge me... This is the part I don't understand about folks that apparently see the world as you do.

First, the greenhouse effect is very solid and has been well understood for more than 150 years. Scientists around the world have been monitoring our emissions and have done thousands? of experiments to answer the "what could happen if we keep doing this" question. So the science of climate change - and the solid facts that we're breaking things - are well known and there's zero debate in the scientific community about this.

But there is POLITICAL debate - and the 'appearance of debate' was not started by science but by political strategists and 'think tanks' being funded by the industry segments that are profiting from the uncertainty. This manufactured uncertainty is perpetuated in order to keep things stuck the way they are. The Reagan administration wanted the Strategic Defense Initiative - so they created a PR campaign to instill and maintain fear in the American people. The tobacco industry wanted to maintain their profits - so they created doubt about the negative effects of smoking. Same thing with DDT, acid rain, and now global warming. The SCIENCE was solid in each case, but the artificially manufactured doubt was politically motivated.

The simple fact is that people that don't 'believe' in global warming have chosen - consciously or not - to completely disregard science and instead side with a politically-motivated smoke and mirrors campaign.

And those same well-practiced techniques are being used in the debt talks. According to the Constitution, the budget work is supposed to occur in the House. It's their job! But one wouldn't get that message if they listen to Speaker Boehner and his freshman sidekick - they're spending all their time deflecting their inability to do their jobs and trying to pin it in on the President. But wait - aren't these the folks - especially the recent teaparty inductees - that enthusiastically suggest we read the Constitution?! How difficult is it to see the hypocrisy here?

Public employee salaries are hand-outs? Police? Social security? How about my military retirement amigo? And my VA disability? Are those handouts too? Are you really trying to suggest that the country would be better off if we didn't have an interstate highway system, didn't have food and drug rules, didn't have water and sewer systems or air and water quality standards? No police, no fire departments? No space program either, I guess - so kiss tang and velcro good bye ...along with the medical and scientific spin-offs. No military or associated industries. How's unemployment looking in your world once you give everyone in Federal and State government pink slips?

I guess that leaves us here. Feel free to pack your things - you'll like this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0[/youtube]

 

[AndyH]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05brooks.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general

 

[Herm]

Public employee salaries are hand-outs? Police? Social security? How about my military retirement amigo? And my VA disability? Are those handouts too? Are you really trying to suggest that the country would be better off if we didn't have an interstate highway system, didn't have food and drug rules, didn't have water and sewer systems or air and water quality standards?

Andy please, no strawman arguments.. obviously some handouts are more deserved than others, and I honor your service. Dont forget the gov can enforce tax collections with guns, to fund your income... so appreciate every penny you get and consider where it came from.

I also honor your faith in AGW, I am agnostic on the subject.. its certainly possible and we should see in about 30 years or so. Perhaps by then I will become a Denier. I am very familiar with the greenhouse effect, I have been observing Venus for 40 years.

The republicans are trying to pin blame on Obama for everything?, he should man up and take the blame, its his job.. amazing how that works.

 

[hodad66]

yep everything is Obama's fault...... two wars, tax cuts, prescription support
and all without being paid for. A surplus turned into a deficit... GW did a great job
but it's all Obama's fault.... GIVE ME A FRICKIN BREAK!
The GOP's best weapon? Amnesia.............

 

[Stoaty]

I also honor your faith in AGW, I am agnostic on the subject.. its certainly possible and we should see in about 30 years or so. Perhaps by then I will become a Denier.

If I may speak for AndyH, what he is saying is not that he has faith in AGW, but instead trusts the body of scientific work that has been built up over the last 100 years, and which is getting stronger every year. Have you looked into the science behind AGW? For instance, the IPCC, the National Academy of Science of multiple countries (including the U.S.), etc. There is plenty of scientific material. Aren't you concerned from at least a risk management viewpoint?

 

[sparky]

...No space program either, I guess - so kiss tang and velcro good bye

Sorry, have to call you on this common misconception; Velcro is a Swiss invention from the 40's: http://www.velcro.com/index.php?page=company

 

[Herm]

Aren't you concerned from at least a risk management viewpoint?

No, perhaps in a few more years.. its too soon now.

 

[hodad66]

Laugh? No... this whole mess makes me cry. Our country is screwed by the crazy ignorant nihilist egotistical ayn rand tea partiers.

AMEN

 

[Smidge204]

Sorry, have to call you on this common misconception; Velcro is a Swiss invention from the 40's: http://www.velcro.com/index.php?page=company

While it's true that hook-and-loop fasteners were invented long before, they only became commercially successful after they were used in the construction of space suits. A lot of things were not invented explicitly for aerospace applications but became successful because of aerospace development, or use technology or processes that were developed for aerospace applications.

For example, computational models developed for designing the space shuttle's main engines was used to develop a axial rotary heart pump implant. A perfect example of how the technology developed for one application can be used for another, completely unrelated application. NASA is said to churn out some 1,600 new technologies every year, resulting in a massive catalog that other inventors and businesses can tap into.
=Smidge=

 

[Fabio]

Were you saying the same when GOP & Ronnie Reagan blamed Carter for everything?

The republicans are trying to pin blame on Obama for everything?, he should man up and take the blame, its his job.. amazing how that works.

 

[thankyouOB]

I had avoided this thread because arguing politics here is pretty much arguing with a few rich guys.
But I got dragged in today--prolly it is about the shut freeway.

but a question: AGW =
global warming?
----
and a comment.
Anyone with a small amount of economics, or who can listen to economists from Bernanke to Krugman knows that our economy needs spending and stimulus, now and that what was done in 2009 didnt work better because it was too small and contained too many tax cuts.

WH economists knew that but the president didnt have the courage to ask for a bigger package.
Today, the government can borrow at record low costs (about 0% after inflation), and should be rebuilding our infrastructure, sending money to the states to rehire fired teachers and public safety workers, and keep unemployment checks coming, which get spent.

the argument that interest rates will soar, if we do this, has been disproven. it is pretty clear the bond market doesn't care about more immediate spending to stimulate the economy. the bond vigilantes are keeping US Treasuries at their lowest rates in years.

tax cuts to corporations didnt work. they kept the money or bought back their own stock, so they arent hiring more.
we need to get people to work and they will pay more taxes, that will lower the deficit.

worked in the last depression--only the stimulus was WWII.

I always laugh when those goopers in Congress rail about spending while working out in a govt gym, getting their haircut and health care from govt subsidies, and retiring young on a govt pension.

 

[Fabio]

AGW = anthropomorphic (human-caused) Global Warming.
There are no peer-reviewed scientific papers that disproof AGW, while there are plenty that prove it.
End of the argument for the deniers.

If you put money in the hands of the middle class, it gets immediately back into the economy. If you give tax breaks to the rich, it goes into their portfolios, and there is no direct effect on consumption.

My last point is that we would balance the budget if we only had the taxes at the same level as that Bolshevik of Ronald Reagan.

but a question: AGW =
global warming?
----
and a comment.
Anyone with a small amount of economics, or who can listen to economists from Bernanke to Krugman knows that our economy needs spending and stimulus, now and that what was done in 2009 didnt work better because it was too small and contained too many tax cuts.

 

[klapauzius]

I had avoided this thread because arguing politics here is pretty much arguing with a few rich guys.

I am curious why you think that is so ?
Anyway, I have the impression, that there is no real argument here, as almost anyone agrees...
Probably, because if you are smart enough to appreciate electric cars and what they mean for our future, you are also smart enough to understand politics and economics as well...Then of course, you would think smart people earn good salaries as well.

 

[svBackstreets]

I had avoided this thread because arguing politics here is pretty much arguing with a few rich guys.
But I got dragged in today--prolly it is about the shut freeway.

but a question: AGW =
global warming?
----
and a comment.
Anyone with a small amount of economics, or who can listen to economists from Bernanke to Krugman knows that our economy needs spending and stimulus, now and that what was done in 2009 didnt work better because it was too small and contained too many tax cuts.

WH economists knew that but the president didnt have the courage to ask for a bigger package.
Today, the government can borrow at record low costs (about 0% after inflation), and should be rebuilding our infrastructure, sending money to the states to rehire fired teachers and public safety workers, and keep unemployment checks coming, which get spent.

the argument that interest rates will soar, if we do this, has been disproven. it is pretty clear the bond market doesn't care about more immediate spending to stimulate the economy. the bond vigilantes are keeping US Treasuries at their lowest rates in years.

tax cuts to corporations didnt work. they kept the money or bought back their own stock, so they arent hiring more.
we need to get people to work and they will pay more taxes, that will lower the deficit.

worked in the last depression--only the stimulus was WWII.

I always laugh when those goopers in Congress rail about spending while working out in a govt gym, getting their haircut and health care from govt subsidies, and retiring young on a govt pension.

I absolutely agree. We'd have a very different electorate, and country, if everyone took, and understood, a macroeconomics course.

 

[earther]

I absolutely agree. We'd have a very different electorate, and country, if everyone took, and understood, a macroeconomics course.

Macroeconomics IS a high school graduation requirement in pretty much every state I'm familiar with.
You can lead a horse to water, but...

 

[AndyH]

...No space program either, I guess - so kiss tang and velcro good bye

Sorry, have to call you on this common misconception; Velcro is a Swiss invention from the 40's: http://www.velcro.com/index.php?page=company

Nawww - that's just the cover story. It was first seen on the silver jump suites the guys were wearing when they crashed at Roswell.

edit...typos do vex me...

 

[AndyH]

Public employee salaries are hand-outs? Police? Social security? How about my military retirement amigo? And my VA disability? Are those handouts too? Are you really trying to suggest that the country would be better off if we didn't have an interstate highway system, didn't have food and drug rules, didn't have water and sewer systems or air and water quality standards?

Andy please, no strawman arguments.. obviously some handouts are more deserved than others, and I honor your service. Dont forget the gov can enforce tax collections with guns, to fund your income... so appreciate every penny you get and consider where it came from.

No strawmen. "some handouts...more deserved..." - thanks - I'm glad to hear that executing a legally binding contract is now a handout. And this with one that appears to side with the party that lives to support and defend business? As for the source - I'm well aware. I paid into an unemployment INSURANCE program for many years - and can never file a claim against it. I paid into the other systems as well. Again - not personal; no straws harmed.

As an aside, one of the primary ways we can identify whether carbon came from a fire in the Amazon, a volcano, or oil/coal is the isotopic signature of the carbon. According to historian N. Oreskes, the science that led to advanced understanding of the way elements change came from Department of Defense spending in the nuclear field. Damn those Government handouts... :lol:

I also honor your faith in AGW, I am agnostic on the subject.. its certainly possible and we should see in about 30 years or so. Perhaps by then I will become a Denier. I am very familiar with the greenhouse effect, I have been observing Venus for 40 years.

I feel these words are important, Herm, so let's split hairs for a moment. "Faith" does not apply to global warming any more than one uses faith when they use a thermometer to measure a fever. Therefore, it seems to me, 'agnostic' doesn't apply either. Fact is that science theorized that we could change our climate well before the 1960s - and saw black and white indications that it was happening in the 1980s. Again - scientific fact is clear and there is no debate. The only debate is that fanned by the denial factory and their small group of followers.

Don't 'believe' in the denial machine? Watch this or read the speaker's book:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T4UF_Rmlio[/youtube]
There's a link in the notes so one can download a better quality version of the video.
"Merchants of Doubt", Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway

The...IPCC is the world's leading authority on climate issues. Established in 1988 by the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environment Program, it was created in response to early warnings about global warming. Scientists had known for a long time that increased greenhouse gases from burning fossil fuels could cause climate change - they had explained this to Lyndon Johnson in 1965 - but most thought that changes were far off in the future. It wasn't until the 1980s that scientists started to worry - to think that the future was perhaps almost here - and a few mavericks began to argue that anthropogenic climate change was actually under way. So the IPCC was created to evaluate the evidence and consider what the impacts would be if the mavericks were right.

In 1995, the IPCC declared that the human impact on climate was now "discernible." This wasn't just a few individuals; by 1995 the IPCC had grown to include several hundred climate scientists from around the world. But how did they know that changes were under way, and how did they know they were caused by us? Those crucial questions were answered in Climate Change 1995: The Science of Climate Change, the Second Assessment Report issued by the IPCC. Chapter 8 of this report, "Detection of Climate Change and Attribution of Causes," summarized the evidence that global warming really was caused by greenhouse gases.

Merchants of Doubt, Oreskes/Conway, P2-3

The republicans are trying to pin blame on Obama for everything?, he should man up and take the blame, its his job.. amazing how that works.

Yes - that's a fact. Republicans in both the House and Senate have made it clear - on the record - that their primary job is to make President Obama a one-term president. Aside from that, we need only watch as they attack the EPA, unions, and the social safety net, while maintaining the smoke and mirrors to keep the public looking in other directions. The House is responsible - per the Constitution - for working the budget. So while the President absolutely needs to get all the kids in the sandbox if they won't get there on their own, he cannot act unilaterally.

Herm, I'm embarrassed to say that understand how it feels to be duped and I understand from personal experience how one can resist the message because one doesn't trust the politician delivering it. But please - give the climate info an open look. Because when all's said and done, the threat to this country from climate change is more significant than Perl Harbor or the Cold War and it should be our primary focus. It'll be giving the planet a hard time after the tea party only exists in the appendix of some obscure history book.

edit...as an actual on-topic aside, Ms. Oreskes talk and book presents the 'outline of denial' used successfully for a very long time - and it appears to have morphed into the 'extreme obstruction' tactic used by the tea caucus. The teaparty freshmen in Congress don't appear to have a plan to move forward - just loud voices used to threaten and extort.

What do you folks think - if you've read "Merchants of Doubt" or seen Naomi Oreskes' talks, do you see the same pattern of industry think-tanks and work to obscure in the Tea Party and extreme Republicans/Libertarians that we're seeing in AGW deniers and saw when the 1990s era California Air Resources Board EV mandates were attacked?

Good hunting.

(Thanks, by the way, for the chats. I've learned a great deal.)

 

[Fabio]

This chart illustrates why I keep bringing up the sacred cow of the GOP when talking about national debt:

 

[Smidge204]

Did someone say handouts?

There's a version somewhere that uses 2008 data but I can't seem to find it... not that it's changed much. The overall trend remains the same. I really don't understand how some people can be so blind to their own situation... my boss occasionally complains about government spending, but actively petitions the government for grant money to support his latest business venture to the tune of several million dollars a year. Despite attempts to explain the irony to him he doesn't really seem to grasp it, and he's not a dumb person. I guess when you try to confront some people on their dogma their brains just shut down.

Some are simply irredeemable, though;

God damn "Goverment!"
=Smidge=

 

[Fabio]

... and then, even in this pretty progressive forum, someone has the audacity of talking of kool-aid about acknowledging AGW.
The real kool-aid religion in this country is the one of the Fox-news/Talk-Radio listeners (who blindly accept their false facts passed as immutable dogmas)

[...] he's not a dumb person. I guess when you try to confront some people on their dogma their brains just shut down.