Dmchose
Well-known member
Not hot but a 10 foot extension cord was definitely really warm around the end that was in the wall.. is that an issue ? Our garage sockets are 35 years old.
FIRE using LVL 1 - 120 V Trickle Charger
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Valdemar
Well-known member
Using an extension cord is generally a bad idea. If you have to use one it must of the heavy-duty variety with 14AWG wires at minimum. Checking the temperature at the receptacle is by no means a guarantee of anything, as there can be any number of bad splicing points on the way from the electrical panel to the outlet. If in doubt hire an electrician so he can give you an assessment of this circuit, if that's an option.
Valdemar said:
I would go with a 12ga. cord instead of 14ga. While technically 14ga can handle 12A it is at the very limit. That leaves no headroom for all the things that happen over time, like broken strands from twisted cable, or less than 100% efficient plugs. 12ga. is pretty cheap insurance.
And a big thumbs up for using an infrared temperature monitor. You can get them fairly cheap at places like Harbor Freight
davewill
Well-known member
It could be. At 35yo, I'd just assume the worst and have an electrician out to inspect and replace the outlet...and give you a quote for a 240 circuit.Dmchose said:
Dmchose
Well-known member
Thanx y'all. I'll certainly drop the extension cord use. The L2 charger is ordered.
Should be here in 10 days or so. I'll give an electrician a shout in the morning.
I'll have new receptacles put in.
Don
Should be here in 10 days or so. I'll give an electrician a shout in the morning.
I'll have new receptacles put in.
Don
mgs333
Well-known member
How warm is too warm?
When I charge on the 120V plug in my garage, after a few hours, when I touch the outlet area around the plug, it's barely warm. The EVSE brick itself and the EVSE cable are actually warmer than the outlet.
When I charge on the 120V plug in my garage, after a few hours, when I touch the outlet area around the plug, it's barely warm. The EVSE brick itself and the EVSE cable are actually warmer than the outlet.
mgs333 said:
If you'd be comfortable holding it against the most sensitive parts of your body for hours, then it's not too warm. If it causes discomfort immediately then it's definitely too warm.
johnrhansen
Well-known member
A couple observations.
If the outlet is in your garage it needs to be GFCI
There is an outlet out there with stab in connections that I like. You strip the wire, stick it in and then tighten a screw on the side to cinch it down. Yeah the ones that just lock themselves in are kind of scary. They have come up with a wire nut replacement that works similar to that. Not really sure I like those. I still use wire nuts.
The ground wires need to be tied together with a pigtail prior to rough in inspection. The reason is according to my inspector is that the outlets will still work with the grounds not connected, obviously a bad situation, and I suppose an unscrupulous contractor at one time in history only hooked up the hots and neutrals. Now they want to see the grounds are "made up" It is OK to daisy chain the hot and neutral, but I don't do it. everything is pigtailed. This way I can wire in an outlet on the last box in the chain, power up the cb an make sure it works before I pay the drywall guy (the plugs are not installed when the drywall is going in). I had a drywall guy working one time slamming in screws. and I heard a breaker pop. I yelled at him to stop, had him take the drywall panel he was installing off, and found the damaged wire and repaired it. He was using 2 1/2 inch screws. You have to put a nail plate in when the hole is an inch or less. But my hole was dead center in the stud. You can't put nail plates over every hole, you'd be there all day! If I hadn't had the circuit hot, it would have been very hard to find where the damaged wire was. I make sure now that the drywall guy is not using long screws. By the way, drywall screw damage to wire is another big cause of electrical house fires.
I see houses wired with 14 gauge all the time. there is nothing wrong with that. You just need to put fewer outlets on that circuit. the only outlets that need 20 are the kitchen and laundry outlets.
As far as I can tell 15 amp and 20 amp outlets are exactly the same, except for the extra slit in the neutral prong. Why would the plug manufacturers make 2 different prongs? It makes sense to build them all to take 20 and just add that extra slit in the plastic as an extra step in the manufacturing process. I really don't think you are adding any margin of safety by installing 20 amp receptacles instead of 15. The only time you must install a 20 amp receptacle is if it is the only outlet on a 20 amp circuit, or if the device you are plugging in requires a 20 amp receptacle.
AFCI is a really good thing. I'm glad they require it now. Who knows if it would have prevented this particular incident, but if it saves one life, it is worth it.
Household outlets are not meant to be connected and disconnected over and over again. Even the good ones will go bad. For this reason, I would say that You should replace your outlet before you begin charging your car with it. This way you can inspect the wiring behind, and KNOW the outlet is good.
Those cheap outlets should be banned. I never put them in. Even if it's not my house I'm working on. I wish they built a go no go tension checker to determine if an outlet is good or not. We used to use them on our aircraft external power receptacles. Those suckers get plugged and unplugged several times a day, and they send 250 amps through them! They sometimes got awfully loose.
If the outlet is in your garage it needs to be GFCI
There is an outlet out there with stab in connections that I like. You strip the wire, stick it in and then tighten a screw on the side to cinch it down. Yeah the ones that just lock themselves in are kind of scary. They have come up with a wire nut replacement that works similar to that. Not really sure I like those. I still use wire nuts.
The ground wires need to be tied together with a pigtail prior to rough in inspection. The reason is according to my inspector is that the outlets will still work with the grounds not connected, obviously a bad situation, and I suppose an unscrupulous contractor at one time in history only hooked up the hots and neutrals. Now they want to see the grounds are "made up" It is OK to daisy chain the hot and neutral, but I don't do it. everything is pigtailed. This way I can wire in an outlet on the last box in the chain, power up the cb an make sure it works before I pay the drywall guy (the plugs are not installed when the drywall is going in). I had a drywall guy working one time slamming in screws. and I heard a breaker pop. I yelled at him to stop, had him take the drywall panel he was installing off, and found the damaged wire and repaired it. He was using 2 1/2 inch screws. You have to put a nail plate in when the hole is an inch or less. But my hole was dead center in the stud. You can't put nail plates over every hole, you'd be there all day! If I hadn't had the circuit hot, it would have been very hard to find where the damaged wire was. I make sure now that the drywall guy is not using long screws. By the way, drywall screw damage to wire is another big cause of electrical house fires.
I see houses wired with 14 gauge all the time. there is nothing wrong with that. You just need to put fewer outlets on that circuit. the only outlets that need 20 are the kitchen and laundry outlets.
As far as I can tell 15 amp and 20 amp outlets are exactly the same, except for the extra slit in the neutral prong. Why would the plug manufacturers make 2 different prongs? It makes sense to build them all to take 20 and just add that extra slit in the plastic as an extra step in the manufacturing process. I really don't think you are adding any margin of safety by installing 20 amp receptacles instead of 15. The only time you must install a 20 amp receptacle is if it is the only outlet on a 20 amp circuit, or if the device you are plugging in requires a 20 amp receptacle.
AFCI is a really good thing. I'm glad they require it now. Who knows if it would have prevented this particular incident, but if it saves one life, it is worth it.
Household outlets are not meant to be connected and disconnected over and over again. Even the good ones will go bad. For this reason, I would say that You should replace your outlet before you begin charging your car with it. This way you can inspect the wiring behind, and KNOW the outlet is good.
Those cheap outlets should be banned. I never put them in. Even if it's not my house I'm working on. I wish they built a go no go tension checker to determine if an outlet is good or not. We used to use them on our aircraft external power receptacles. Those suckers get plugged and unplugged several times a day, and they send 250 amps through them! They sometimes got awfully loose.
TimLee
Well-known member
Probably OK.mgs333 said:
But connections to the outlet could be poor and overheating without much heat being detected on the outlet cover.
You can really only be sure if it has been physically inspected assuring it is right.
TimLee
Well-known member
If the OP's fire was caused by staple damage to the cable Arc Flash Circuit Interrupter is all that would have prevented the fire.johnrhansen said:
But I don't think the code requires them in garages yet.
Does AFCI include GFCI protection which is required in garages (although some have had problems with GFCI use with EVSE)?
Or would panel need AFCI with GFCI outlet?
That and 12 gauge cable installed for just the EVSE outlet would be the safest choice.
johnrhansen
Well-known member
TimLee said:
The way I read the NEC, in households anyway, if an outlet is required to be GFCI (outside, garages, kitchens, bathrooms) it's not required to be AFCI. If it is not required to be GFCI, it is required to be AFCI. (bedrooms, living rooms, etc.) That code is so hard to understand. It looks like the only exception to this rule is the laundry outlet, as long as it's not near a sink, it can be neither. Maybe one of the electrician gurus can correct me if I'm wrong. It's really too bad they don't make a breaker that is both AFCI and GFCI.
jdunmyer
Well-known member
johnrhansen wrote:
I'll preface this by admitting to not being a licensed electrician, but I work with them from time to time and have been doing my own wiring for over 50 years now.
When I wired my shop in 1968, I bought everything at Sears. They had 2 or 3 different receptacles available, and it was obvious that one was "better", it was much thicker and more expensive. That's what I used. If you shop at Home Depot, Lowes, etc, you'll find that they carry several grades of receptacles. Although I'm unsure of the differences, there is quite a difference in prices; presumably, more $$$ -> better quality.
Recently, I've begun using ONLY 20-amp receptacles, as I've noticed a huge difference between them and most 15-amp units. It takes much more force to either insert or remove a plug, telling me that better contact is being made. Like you, I've fallen in love with the style of receptacle that has a hole for the wire, but a screw clamp to secure it. Most of my wiring in recent years has been done in EMT, using THHN stranded wire, and it's a pita to hook up to a plain screw-type connection.
Heat in electrical stuff scares me, as it often leads to component breakdown, more heat, and eventual fires. I put up a standalone garage and wired it this Spring, it's just 10' from my barn/shop, and has less than 30' of #6 wire between the shop's existing 200 amp fuse panel and the new garage's subpanel. The feed from the existing panel is through a 60-amp fused pullout. Soon after getting this operational, I was charging the Leaf through my Schneider EVSE and was applying a Dymo label to the fuse panel in the shop. With my hand very near/touching the pullout, I could feel some heat that seemed a bit excessive. To make a long story short, I determined that it was the old 60-amp fuses that had been laying around "forever" and had oxidation on the ends. A few seconds with the wire brush and an application of anti-oxidant paste, and all is well. The fuses still get a bit warm with the 28-amp draw, but that's normal as near as I can tell; I've determined that the heat is NOT coming from the connection between the panel's buss bars and the fused pullout. It was strictly dumb luck to have found that warm connection before it caused problems. There's no danger of fire, but it could have ruined the pullout and/or the panel itself.
If I think of it, I'll often use anti-oxidant paste on wire connections in a panel and on the clips of snap-on breakers. Probably overkill, but it sure doesn't hurt.
There was a discussion earlier in the thread about extension cords: those can be problematic, even if they say "12 gauge, Heavy Duty", as the plugs & receptacles tend to be crappy. I've had more than one of those cords where they only work when you wiggle the device's plug in the cord's receptacle. I'm fortunate in being able to "shop" at a local scrapyard, and I'll lop off any/all cord caps, both male and female, if they're the quality kind, Leviton, Hubble, etc. I'll sometimes clip the plug and/or receptacle off the typical orange cord and replace them with those from the scrapyard.
I'll preface this by admitting to not being a licensed electrician, but I work with them from time to time and have been doing my own wiring for over 50 years now.
When I wired my shop in 1968, I bought everything at Sears. They had 2 or 3 different receptacles available, and it was obvious that one was "better", it was much thicker and more expensive. That's what I used. If you shop at Home Depot, Lowes, etc, you'll find that they carry several grades of receptacles. Although I'm unsure of the differences, there is quite a difference in prices; presumably, more $$$ -> better quality.
Recently, I've begun using ONLY 20-amp receptacles, as I've noticed a huge difference between them and most 15-amp units. It takes much more force to either insert or remove a plug, telling me that better contact is being made. Like you, I've fallen in love with the style of receptacle that has a hole for the wire, but a screw clamp to secure it. Most of my wiring in recent years has been done in EMT, using THHN stranded wire, and it's a pita to hook up to a plain screw-type connection.
Heat in electrical stuff scares me, as it often leads to component breakdown, more heat, and eventual fires. I put up a standalone garage and wired it this Spring, it's just 10' from my barn/shop, and has less than 30' of #6 wire between the shop's existing 200 amp fuse panel and the new garage's subpanel. The feed from the existing panel is through a 60-amp fused pullout. Soon after getting this operational, I was charging the Leaf through my Schneider EVSE and was applying a Dymo label to the fuse panel in the shop. With my hand very near/touching the pullout, I could feel some heat that seemed a bit excessive. To make a long story short, I determined that it was the old 60-amp fuses that had been laying around "forever" and had oxidation on the ends. A few seconds with the wire brush and an application of anti-oxidant paste, and all is well. The fuses still get a bit warm with the 28-amp draw, but that's normal as near as I can tell; I've determined that the heat is NOT coming from the connection between the panel's buss bars and the fused pullout. It was strictly dumb luck to have found that warm connection before it caused problems. There's no danger of fire, but it could have ruined the pullout and/or the panel itself.
If I think of it, I'll often use anti-oxidant paste on wire connections in a panel and on the clips of snap-on breakers. Probably overkill, but it sure doesn't hurt.
There was a discussion earlier in the thread about extension cords: those can be problematic, even if they say "12 gauge, Heavy Duty", as the plugs & receptacles tend to be crappy. I've had more than one of those cords where they only work when you wiggle the device's plug in the cord's receptacle. I'm fortunate in being able to "shop" at a local scrapyard, and I'll lop off any/all cord caps, both male and female, if they're the quality kind, Leviton, Hubble, etc. I'll sometimes clip the plug and/or receptacle off the typical orange cord and replace them with those from the scrapyard.
johnrhansen
Well-known member
Not sure they make cheap 20 amp receptacles. I was comparing the pro grade ones that cost a couple bucks each. So that might be one reason 20 amp receptacles are seen as better.
mgs333
Well-known member
TimLee said:
I measured it using an infrared thermometer and the area around the outlet was ~85 degrees F, with the evse bruck at 95F, the wall itself was 78F. You're right that I may have an electrician come out and check it anyway for peace of mind.
johnrhansen
Well-known member
I'd say the lowest temperature rating for insulation and connections is 60C or 140 degrees F, so I'd say that is about the line when warm starts to fade into too hot. It takes much hotter temperatures than that before wood begins to char or burn.
johnrhansen
Well-known member
If you cant hang onto it for more than a few seconds, it's too hot.
JPWhite
Well-known member
Graycenphil said:
Correct. I have installed dual smoke alarm / carbon monoxide alarms through my home including the garage.
No false positives from running my wife's ICE in and out of the garage. Lawn mower sometimes trips it, I always push the mower outside for the first start of the season for this reason.
JPWhite
Well-known member
johnrhansen said:
FYI
"AFCI and GFCI Protection
An AFCI can be used in conjunction with GFCI protection to provide both arcing fault protection as well as 5mA ground fault (people) protection. A common way to provide both types of protection is to use an AFCI circuit breaker and a GFCI receptacle. AFCIs can also incorporate 5mA GFCI protection into the same package. This solution for AFCI and GFCI on the same circuit can be useful where the circuit design requires both types of protection or where the installer (or user) wants to have both types of protection."
http://www.afcisafety.org/qa.html
I had a nasty surprise this morning. Our garage door broke, so I was using the EVSE on an outdoor 120V plug, that was wired through a light switch in the garage. I had done this the previous 2 nights with no trouble, but had a very low initial charge this time, and had set up for 100%. Got lucky with just a fried wall switch, and discolored wall box, when the breaker finally tripped.
BostonLance
Member
Acknowledging that I'm beating a dead horse in an old thread, but wanted to add this quote with regard to Nissan providing proper warning:
I laughed at this because I live in a house build in 1866. The knob and tube wiring has been replaced in several stages to get it up to the current code level. The quote is a noble attempt by Nissan to make the point of this thread, although it's a bit disguised.
Thanks to all posters for the info provided here. It'll help me get square with my current use of the Level 1 charger and with my plans for installing a Level 2.
I laughed at this because I live in a house build in 1866. The knob and tube wiring has been replaced in several stages to get it up to the current code level. The quote is a noble attempt by Nissan to make the point of this thread, although it's a bit disguised.
Thanks to all posters for the info provided here. It'll help me get square with my current use of the Level 1 charger and with my plans for installing a Level 2.
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