Free EV charging unconstitutional?

[Publius]

Apparently there are some unexpected hurdles for free EV charging in NY. What do you think, is this s silly or legitimate concern? I don't mind paying a modest fee to charge on government property because I think people will be more likely to support the proliferation of charge stations if they don't think it's giving someone a free ride (literally).

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083697_free-electric-car-charging-illegal-on-municipal-property-in-ny-state?fbfanpage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[davewill]

Just as well. I see no reason for a city government to offer free charging.

 

[RonDawg]

While I support low-cost charging to discourage inconsiderate drivers from hogging the chargers, I fail to see that city attorney's argument that providing free charging stations violates the NY state constitution. If so, then they better start putting parking meters in every street parking space and municipal lot, and impose toll fees to drive on city streets, because providing those for free would be the same thing.

And yes parking spaces and streets do cost money. The city had to pay to pave them, and has to pay someone (more likely, a crew of them) to keep them in good repair and to keep them swept (and plowed of snow in the winter).

 

[johnqh]

The New York State Constitution, he noted, says that municipalities shall not "give or loan any money or property to or in aid of any individual, corporation or association, or private undertaking.”

When did electricity become "money" or "property"?

Also, if the parking is not free (metered street parking or parking garage), then there is no "give" or "loan".

 

[apvbguy]

Apparently there are some unexpected hurdles for free EV charging in NY. What do you think, is this s silly or legitimate concern? I don't mind paying a modest fee to charge on government property because I think people will be more likely to support the proliferation of charge stations if they don't think it's giving someone a free ride (literally).

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083697_free-electric-car-charging-illegal-on-municipal-property-in-ny-state?fbfanpage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

NY is a part of the land of the land of the strange, see bloomie's food rules or cuomo's gun laws

 

[apvbguy]

The New York State Constitution, he noted, says that municipalities shall not "give or loan any money or property to or in aid of any individual, corporation or association, or private undertaking.”

When did electricity become "money" or "property"?

when a value was place onto it.

 

[apvbguy]

While I support low-cost charging to discourage inconsiderate drivers from hogging the chargers, I fail to see that city attorney's argument that providing free charging stations violates the NY state constitution. If so, then they better start putting parking meters in every street parking space and municipal lot, and impose toll fees to drive on city streets, because providing those for free would be the same thing.

And yes parking spaces and streets do cost money. The city had to pay to pave them, and has to pay someone (more likely, a crew of them) to keep them in good repair and to keep them swept (and plowed of snow in the winter).

this is a liberal canard. we the people own the streets, the city has no more exclusive rights to those streets than anyone else does.

 

[RonDawg]

While I support low-cost charging to discourage inconsiderate drivers from hogging the chargers, I fail to see that city attorney's argument that providing free charging stations violates the NY state constitution. If so, then they better start putting parking meters in every street parking space and municipal lot, and impose toll fees to drive on city streets, because providing those for free would be the same thing.

And yes parking spaces and streets do cost money. The city had to pay to pave them, and has to pay someone (more likely, a crew of them) to keep them in good repair and to keep them swept (and plowed of snow in the winter).

this is a liberal canard. we the people own the streets, the city has no more exclusive rights to those streets than anyone else does.

Me, or the story? Trust me, I'm not a liberal AT ALL.

 

[apvbguy]

While I support low-cost charging to discourage inconsiderate drivers from hogging the chargers, I fail to see that city attorney's argument that providing free charging stations violates the NY state constitution. If so, then they better start putting parking meters in every street parking space and municipal lot, and impose toll fees to drive on city streets, because providing those for free would be the same thing.

And yes parking spaces and streets do cost money. The city had to pay to pave them, and has to pay someone (more likely, a crew of them) to keep them in good repair and to keep them swept (and plowed of snow in the winter).

this is a liberal canard. we the people own the streets, the city has no more exclusive rights to those streets than anyone else does.

Me, or the story? Trust me, I'm not a liberal AT ALL.

the canard is that the government has any rights to sell parking on a public street, we the people paid for that street, the government doesn't own it they are holding and operating it in trust for us, you know WE THE PEOPLE

 

[RonDawg]

the canard is that the government has any rights to sell parking on a public street, we the people paid for that street, the government doesn't own it they are holding and operating it in trust for us, you know WE THE PEOPLE

That doesn't explain the thousands of parking meters in cities and towns all over the US. You're also missing my point....the city attorney in this case is claiming that providing free electricity for EV owners is illegal. How is that different from providing free parking spaces which still have a cost to them to provide and especially to maintain?

 

[apvbguy]

the canard is that the government has any rights to sell parking on a public street, we the people paid for that street, the government doesn't own it they are holding and operating it in trust for us, you know WE THE PEOPLE

That doesn't explain the thousands of parking meters in cities and towns all over the US. You're also missing my point....the city attorney in this case is claiming that providing free electricity for EV owners is illegal. How is that different from providing free parking spaces which still have a cost to them to provide and especially to maintain?

there is a cost of building the infrastructure for providing that "free" electricity" do I really need to note the specific things that would need to be paid for to provide that free electricity?
what cost is there to allow cars to park on a right of way? ( that's a legal type term for street) The origins of parking metering was not to be a method of raising revenue it was to ensure that business districts could have available parking places by metering ( another word for measurement ) the time one could occupy a place on that ROW ( short for right of way) by limiting the time a car could occupy a place would allow more potential customers accessibility to the areas businesses, if you noticed, for the most part metering of parking usually is found only in commercial districts.
what has happened in modern times is that many cash strapped towns and cities look towards anything that can be taxed to increase revenues, for example many localities tax rain water runoff. but that is a whole 'nother debate. the bottom line is that cities and towns do not own anything, they are the trustees of things.

 

[RonDawg]

there is a cost of building the infrastructure for providing that "free" electricity" do I really need to note the specific things that would need to be paid for to provide that free electricity?
what cost is there to allow cars to park on a right of way? ( that's a legal type term for street)

Since the city attorney is talking about constitutionality, AFAIK there is no distinction made in regards to cost. The city attorney is saying that their state constitution prohibits freebies of any sort.

But if we're going to compare costs, some folks here even think $1/hr to charge is a "ripoff" compared to the amount of electricity used. Yet, streets and parking lots still need to be paved, swept, plowed during the winter, and potholes repaired. Those are not insignificant costs. Just visit any cash-strapped city to see just how much this does cost, because when the budget is tight, this is often what gets neglected.

So my question is, if free parking and driving is allowed on city streets and parking lots given there is a significant cost in terms of the infrastructure needed to provide and maintain them, why isn't that illegal too?

 

[apvbguy]

there is a cost of building the infrastructure for providing that "free" electricity" do I really need to note the specific things that would need to be paid for to provide that free electricity?
what cost is there to allow cars to park on a right of way? ( that's a legal type term for street)

Since the city attorney is talking about constitutionality, AFAIK there is no distinction made in regards to cost. The city attorney is saying that their state constitution prohibits freebies of any sort.

But if we're going to compare costs, some folks here even think $1/hr to charge is a "ripoff" compared to the amount of electricity used. Yet, streets and parking lots still need to be paved, swept, plowed during the winter, and potholes repaired. Those are not insignificant costs. Just visit any cash-strapped city to see just how much this does cost, because when the budget is tight, this is often what gets neglected.

So my question is, if free parking and driving is allowed on city streets and parking lots given there is a significant cost in terms of the infrastructure needed to provide and maintain them, why isn't that illegal too?

you aren't listening. it is obvious you aren't grasping the concepts. conversation over

 

[RonDawg]

you aren't listening. it is obvious you aren't grasping the concepts. conversation over

You can ignore me, and I will be happy to do the same with you.

 

[Luft]

the canard is that the government has any rights to sell parking on a public street, we the people paid for that street, the government doesn't own it they are holding and operating it in trust for us, you know WE THE PEOPLE

That statement is, frankly, ludicrous. We the people form governments, Federal, State etc. and give these governments authority to make laws. Unless those laws violate State or Federal constitution they carry the authority of the jurisdiction in which they were passed. So assuming a city passes laws allowing that city to collect fees for parking they do have the right to collect money for parking

 

[Luft]

The New York State Constitution, he noted, says that municipalities shall not "give or loan any money or property to or in aid of any individual, corporation or association, or private undertaking.”

When did electricity become "money" or "property"?

Also, if the parking is not free (metered street parking or parking garage), then there is no "give" or "loan".

Under the law electricity can be considered property. Theift charges can be brought against a person for "stealing electricity."

 

[leafedbehind]

Just as well. I see no reason for a city government to offer free charging.

Yes. I don't see the problem with charging for the true cost of the electricity -- probably 10-15 cents/kWh. Then the constitutionality argument goes away, and the charging stations won't be blocked by people who could have charged at home, but just enjoy the idea of getting a freebie. I admit that I might be one of those taking advantage of the free joules even if I could make it home! ;-)

 

[NYLEAF]

I can't wait to see where this leads us. First off, what counts as municipal? The Port Authority of NY and NJ (a bi-state agency) installed free-to-use ChargePoint charging stations at JFK and LaGuardia airports, both of which are operated by (and I assume owned by) the PANYNJ. Is the airport considered municipal land? The stations are located within (very expensive) paid parking lots. The Town of Hempstead installed 2 free-to-use ChargePoint stations at a town-owned marina in Lido Beach, NY. Does that count, too? There are so many examples of this, just within 15 or so miles of my house, that it totally boggles my mind.

 

[Ingineer]

If electricity to charge an EV isn't legally able to be given away, then the city should immediately cut power to all street lights and traffic signals. While they are at it, the EV's installed in city office buildings, typically referred to as "Elevators", should also immediately have their power cut. :lol:

-Phil

 

[Zythryn]

So much for a free cup of coffee at the courthouse.