Highway Cruiser or Not?

[AndyH]

Point to the FUD again?

Mainly this ....

40 mile max range in EV, the Volt will diminish to 10-15 miles EV mode on the highway and less with AC going.

Do you think the Volt's AC system will use less energy than the Leaf's AC system?

On the quick charge options; yes u will get the 80% percent in 20 minutes if you charge from dead witch is obviously not gonna happen. But let it charge on And will go do 100 percent With a high probability of a slight overcharge due to changing thermal conditions.

The battery management issues present a rather steep learning curve for non-EV folks so instead of spelling out in some disclaimer that the Leaf is not good for extended freeway runs because of the time it would take to charge, the heat build-up issue, the shorter range per charge, etc., perhaps Nissan decided it would be simpler to say "we don't recommend it" so as not to give people the wrong impression.

The good news is that Nissan isn't going to let us get in the way of battery management - it'll be automatic. Temperature should be monitored and charge/discharge adjusted if necessary - absolutely. And for DIY conversions, the human usually does that. But this is a vehicle designed for the folks that don't look at gauges or 'idiot lights'.

I don't expect that Nissan (or the charger) will let us quick charge to more than 80%.

 

[evnow]

Point to the FUD again?

Mainly this ....

40 mile max range in EV, the Volt will diminish to 10-15 miles EV mode on the highway and less with AC going.

Do you think the Volt's AC system will use less energy than the Leaf's AC system?

No. But 10-15 miles instead of 40, is like saying

"100 mile max range in Leaf will diminish to 25-35 miles on the highway and less with AC going".

I'd call this FUD.

 

[AndyH]

Do you think the Volt's AC system will use less energy than the Leaf's AC system?

No. But 10-15 miles instead of 40, is like saying

"100 mile max range in Leaf will diminish to 25-35 miles on the highway and less with AC going".

I'd call this FUD.

Hmmm...maybe not... A 20 mile range hit for the Leaf's AC takes us down to 80 miles range. A 20 mile hit (assuming the AC systems use the same amount of energy) cuts the Volt's EV range in half in a perfect world and probably to less than 20 miles remaining in the real world.

 

[smkettner]

Try using 20% and Volt goes to 32 not less than 20.

 

[DaveEV]

Hmmm...maybe not... A 20 mile range hit for the Leaf's AC takes us down to 80 miles range. A 20 mile hit (assuming the AC systems use the same amount of energy) cuts the Volt's EV range in half in a perfect world and probably to less than 20 miles remaining in the real world.

You need to think in fractions, not miles.

You have to assume that the Leaf and Volt use very similar amounts of energy on the highway and for AC.

Leaf official EV range = 100mi
Volt official EV range = 40mi

Now we go on a highway trip at the same time and the range drops:

Leaf EV range at 70mph w/AC = 80mi (20% loss)
Volt EV range at 70mph w/AC = 32mi (20% loss)

Now if you say that the Volt under that same highway test the range dropped to 20mi - and was caused by the AC being on - that'd mean that the AC sucked up a HUGE amount of energy - it's highly unlikely that the efficiency of the HVAC systems in the Leaf/Volt are substantially different. It would mean that the AC in the Volt likely draws about twice as much power as the Leaf.

 

[AndyH]

I wasn't thinking in miles or percentages - I was thinking in kWh. I think my problem, if I have one, is in the 'hours' part. The Leaf's larger EV range gives it more run-time for the AC so it takes a bigger bit out of range.

Leaf...
24,000 Wh pack, no AC, 100 miles LA4 - 240Wh/mile
24,000 Wh pack, AC, 80 miles LA4 - 300Wh/mile
60Wh/mile consumed by AC; 20% range hit.

(If those assumptions are correct, and the Volt's AC system uses the same energy...)

Volt
8,000 Wh pack, no AC, 40 miles - 200Wh/mile
8,000 Wh pack, AC at Leaf Power, 260Wh/mile - 30 miles
60Wh/mile consumed by AC; 25% range hit.

I don't think 200Wh/mile is likely for the Volt. What if it uses the same 240 as the Leaf?

8,000 Wh pack, no AC, 33 miles - 240Wh/mile
8,000 Wh pack, AC at Leaf Power, 300Wh/mile - 26.7 miles
60Wh/mile consumed by AC; 19% range hit.

Better?

 

[gasmiser1]

I wasn't thinking in miles or percentages - I was thinking in kWh. I think my problem, if I have one, is in the 'hours' part. The Leaf's larger EV range gives it more run-time for the AC so it takes a bigger bit out of range.

Leaf...
24,000 Wh pack, no AC, 100 miles LA4 - 240Wh/mile
24,000 Wh pack, AC, 80 miles LA4 - 300Wh/mile
60Wh/mile consumed by AC; 20% range hit.

(If those assumptions are correct, and the Volt's AC system uses the same energy...)

Volt
8,000 Wh pack, no AC, 40 miles - 200Wh/mile
8,000 Wh pack, AC at Leaf Power, 260Wh/mile - 30 miles
60Wh/mile consumed by AC; 25% range hit.

I don't think 200Wh/mile is likely for the Volt. What if it uses the same 240 as the Leaf?

8,000 Wh pack, no AC, 33 miles - 240Wh/mile
8,000 Wh pack, AC at Leaf Power, 300Wh/mile - 26.7 miles
60Wh/mile consumed by AC; 19% range hit.

Better?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy-
These calculations work for me. I'm not an expert in the EV world. My post at 9:28am today-FUD? Well, I was reflecting on info about Volt EV range drop as voiced by another EV pro I was talking to at the Volt booth at "Plug-In 2010".

The average speed in the Bay Area highways is 70-75 mph. Up on highway 280, there are rolling hills to contend with which will hurt EV range as well. The Volt is heavy and not the most arrow-dynamic vehicle.

Time will tell how the Volt will pan out. I'm not a fan. GM crushing the EV1 was a disgrace as well.

 

[evnow]

Better?

This is what he wrote. Read that again. Apparently Volt gives only 1/4th of the stated range when driven on highways. So, something like 25 miles for Leaf. If you used AC it would be even lesser.

40 mile max range in EV, the Volt will diminish to 10-15 miles EV mode on the highway and less with AC going.

I know some don't like GM/Volt. But PHEVs happen to be important solutions. As I've said many times, a 2 car family can cut 90% of fuel usage by getting a BEV & a PHEV.

 

[gasmiser1]

Better?

This is what he wrote. Read that again. Apparently Volt gives only 1/4th of the stated range when driven on highways. So, something like 25 miles for Leaf. If you used AC it would be even lesser.

40 mile max range in EV, the Volt will diminish to 10-15 miles EV mode on the highway and less with AC going.

I know some don't like GM/Volt. But PHEVs happen to be important solutions. As I've said many times, a 2 car family can cut 90% of fuel usage by getting a BEV & a PHEV.[/quote---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry evnow, my bad
I was in a hurry and my sentence structure wasn't up to par. Take out the word less and it's better said. (I'll edit my original post.)
I agree, BEV and PHEV backup are a great family combo for all purposes.

 

[evnow]

Sorry evnow, my bad

NP. Lets drop it ...

BTW, Volt has the potential to adjust and deliver 40 miles in most cases - since they have 16 kwh to play with - but I dobt they do that. What a waste.

 

[gasmiser1]

Sorry evnow, my bad

NP. Lets drop it ...

BTW, Volt has the potential to adjust and deliver 40 miles in most cases - since they have 16 kwh to play with - but I dobt they do that. What a waste.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Cool

Wierd part about the Volt-the factory rep said it only uses 8 kwh of the battery pack. He said the engineers designed it that way so as not to damage the entire battery pack with charge/discard cycles.

 

[mitch672]

Sorry evnow, my bad

NP. Lets drop it ...

BTW, Volt has the potential to adjust and deliver 40 miles in most cases - since they have 16 kwh to play with - but I dobt they do that. What a waste.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Cool

Wierd part about the Volt-the factory rep said it only uses 8 kwh of the battery pack. He said the engineers designed it that way so as not to damage the entire battery pack with charge/discard cycles.

Yes, GM is using the "Toyota Prius" method by using the middle range of the packs SOC, hoping they can then avoid warranty claims during the 10 year warranty period... It worked for Toyota... of course with the battery chemistry they are now using, such "babying" of the pack is probably not needed as much as the NiMH chemistry used on the Priu. There will probably be after market software hacks to allow more usage of the pack, however, if they have a data logger (likely), you might not want to take that risk.

 

[planet4ever]

The average speed in the Bay Area highways is 70-75 mph. Up on highway 280, there are rolling hills to contend with which will hurt EV range as well. The Volt is heavy and not the most arrow-dynamic vehicle.

One more minor FUD-alert there. The Volt is quite definitely heavy (not that the LEAF is a featherweight) but, according to wind tunnel tests, the Volt is even more aerodynamic than the LEAF. I understood this a bit better after I walked back and forth between the two of them at Plug-in 2010 in San Jose. The Volt is a very low car, with a roof height more like an all-out sports car. It's no wonder our President looked awkward trying to fold himself into the driver's seat. The LEAF sits upright, more like a crossover.

 

[evnow]

The Volt is a very low car, with a roof height more like an all-out sports car. It's no wonder our President looked awkward trying to fold himself into the driver's seat. The LEAF sits upright, more like a crossover.

Volt : 56.6"
Leaf : 61"

 

[DaveEV]

The LEAF sits upright, more like a crossover.

Yep, I'm personally disappointed at the rather high cD figures for the Leaf - but it's obviously designed more for urban travel than extended freeway cruising.

Lowering drag significantly would have meant reducing interior space on the Leaf.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The LEAF sits upright, more like a crossover.

Yep, I'm personally disappointed at the rather high cD figures for the Leaf - but it's obviously designed more for urban travel than extended freeway cruising.

Lowering drag significantly would have meant reducing interior space on the Leaf.

And Americans won't compromise. If the Leaf were made of more aluminum it could also shed significant weight, studies are showing that the cost difference on a car like the leaf would be about $1600-2000 more but the range and performance increase would be significant.

 

[evnow]

And Americans won't compromise. If the Leaf were made of more aluminum it could also shed significant weight, studies are showing that the cost difference on a car like the leaf would be about $1600-2000 more but the range and performance increase would be significant.

One article I saw mentioned 6% increase in range for 10% reduction in weight.

 

[garygid]

Still, this first mass-produced EV is a GREAT first start, and this first LEAF is but the first of many, and carefully leaves room for future Generations of the LEAF to "grow" as they sprout.

Usually, the Japanese engineer is not told to make something as good as possible, because that would imply that the "wise" superiors do not know enough to set a "proper" goal. And, having been given a "goal", the engineer must not miss the goal, even if the result would be considered "better" by Western eyes.

For example, a "set" Cd goal of 0.29 might be higher than what an engineer happened to achieve with the car's body, but then they would have to add a bigger antenna, make the headlights bump up, and make the rear-view mirrors bigger ... to actually achieve the set goal.

After all, over there, one must not question the goals, because they might be part of a "wise" master plan to "evolve" the Cd downward over a 10 or 20-year period.

It is not exactly our system of rash discovery and invention, but it has been "the way" there for far longer than the "new word" has been being plundered by western "civilised" peoples.

 

[AndyH]

Time will tell how the Volt will pan out.

gasmiser1 - I won't be surprised to find that your numbers are most correct once the Volt gets real-world driving.

As far as I can tell, GM hasn't published vehicle weight or range results from standardized testing. It might be convenient for us to guess that AC will result in the same 20% range hit for the Leaf and Volt, we really don't know if that's correct.

It's all good!

 

[AndyH]

And Americans won't compromise.

[devil's advocate] Some will; some won't. Others will recognize that it's really not compromising. [/DA]

If the Leaf were made of more aluminum it could also shed significant weight, studies are showing that the cost difference on a car like the leaf would be about $1600-2000 more but the range and performance increase would be significant.

I'm actually a bit happy about the way this is working out. If perfect is the enemy of good enough, and if perfect means another delay in EVs, then I'm happy that the Leaf's shipping just as it is.

Now it's the aftermarket's turn! Who wants to help make a mold for a carbon fiber hood that actually does something beneficial?

I look forward to reading here about what new ways folks have come up with to 'add lightness' just as I look forward to photos of the first Leaf on EcoModder with a duct-taped boat tail! :lol: