Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[AndyH]

If it's gonna 'hurt' anyway, we might as well get some cash flow out of it.

I agree.
<snip>
I guess my conclusion is that neither BEVs nor H2 FCVs will be major players in the provision of grid electricity during the extended periods at nighttime and cloudy/snowy/still weather when renewable generators are not producing much electricity. That energy needs to come from somewhere else.

Reg - if I put on my 'amateur understanding of the TIR' hat, I have to say that I think you nailed it here.

A bi-directional smart grid distributing both centralized and decentralized energy and supported by V2G BEV and FCEV appears to be all that is necessary for the 'second by second'/'minute by minute' variability that's a normal part of any grid. The real 'storage' pillar of the TIR (CAES, pumped hydro, grid-scale battery, hydrogen fed turbines, etc.) handles the temporal shifting - with H2 stored in the (former) natural gas grid allowing Germany to save excess summer PV and wind to use six months later in the winter, for example.

 

[GRA]

Let me bring this forward, as it was overcome while editing.

Since V2G is one of the five pillars of the TIR, expect to find the most current info in the EU as they've written the transition into law.

Every BEV on the road built by a major manufacturer is collecting data on how the batteries are performing in different climate. All batteries are evaluated with the industry standard power pulse tests, so that data's available as well. Finally, the info on how to manage V2G is coming from plenty of sources other than just the University of Delaware. I'll still recommend looking to Europe for the best info, however.

Here's what one utility group has to say is needed, in the Executive Summary of the

Electric Vehicles as Grid Resources in ISO-NE and Vermont

paper I linked above:

COST-BENEFIT ANALYSES. As GIV benefits and services evolve, cost-benefit analyses must play an important role in
decision making. Values of GIV benefits as well as the costs are largely unknown, and must be determined and
considered as technologies are developed, systems evolve, and pilot projects expand. Demonstration projects will
aid in uncovering and determining the value of costs and benefits.

DEMONSTRATION. With such high levels of complexity, varying stakeholder roles, and regional differences in utility
and grid operations, standardization of GIV systems is a challenge. Market structures and energy dispatch vary from
one ISO or RTO to the next, and the roles of utilities vary both within and between ISOs and RTOs. All of these
factors will impact vehicle-to-grid interactions and the role EVs play within the electrical power system. Addressing
the unexpected and unforeseen complications has proven to be a significant task. It is not possible to identify all of
these complexities without going through the process of creating a GIV project. A demonstration project in ISO-NE,
specifically in Vermont, will begin to help uncover the intricacies of a system in this region.

From further on in the paper:

Finally, V2B and V2H technology involve the backflow of power out of the EV battery. EV warranties do not
currently allow this. There is the risk that implementing such a system would result in voiding the battery warranty.
Testing is required to assess the impact of this backflow on the battery, and warranties revised accordingly.
Because V2B and V2H require additional technological and regulatory barriers to be addressed, it is expected and
suggested that time of use rates and controlled charging programs will be approached first.

In short, they're saying exactly what I've been, that there's still a lot of data that needs to be acquired before regulations and warranties can be re-written and companies (and owners) can be sure this is a good deal. The paper also describes the test/demo projects at UDel plus four DoD pilot projects in addition to Fort Carson. I've just had time to skim so far, but it appears well worth the read, so here's the link again: https://www.veic.org/documents/default-source/resources/reports/evt-rd-electric-vehicles-grid-resource-final-report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[AndyH]

Let me bring this forward, as it was overcome while editing.

Since V2G is one of the five pillars of the TIR, expect to find the most current info in the EU as they've written the transition into law.

Every BEV on the road built by a major manufacturer is collecting data on how the batteries are performing in different climate. All batteries are evaluated with the industry standard power pulse tests, so that data's available as well. Finally, the info on how to manage V2G is coming from plenty of sources other than just the University of Delaware. I'll still recommend looking to Europe for the best info, however.

Here's what one utility group has to say is needed, in the Executive Summary of the

Electric Vehicles as Grid Resources in ISO-NE and Vermont

paper I linked above:

COST-BENEFIT ANALYSES. As GIV benefits and services evolve, cost-benefit analyses must play an important role in
decision making. Values of GIV benefits as well as the costs are largely unknown, and must be determined and
considered as technologies are developed, systems evolve, and pilot projects expand. Demonstration projects will
aid in uncovering and determining the value of costs and benefits.

DEMONSTRATION. With such high levels of complexity, varying stakeholder roles, and regional differences in utility
and grid operations, standardization of GIV systems is a challenge. Market structures and energy dispatch vary from
one ISO or RTO to the next, and the roles of utilities vary both within and between ISOs and RTOs. All of these
factors will impact vehicle-to-grid interactions and the role EVs play within the electrical power system. Addressing
the unexpected and unforeseen complications has proven to be a significant task. It is not possible to identify all of
these complexities without going through the process of creating a GIV project. A demonstration project in ISO-NE,
specifically in Vermont, will begin to help uncover the intricacies of a system in this region.

From further on in the paper:

Finally, V2B and V2H technology involve the backflow of power out of the EV battery. EV warranties do not
currently allow this. There is the risk that implementing such a system would result in voiding the battery warranty.
Testing is required to assess the impact of this backflow on the battery, and warranties revised accordingly.
Because V2B and V2H require additional technological and regulatory barriers to be addressed, it is expected and
suggested that time of use rates and controlled charging programs will be approached first.

In short, they're saying exactly what I've been, that there's still a lot of data that needs to be acquired before regulations and warranties can be re-written and companies (and owners) can be sure this is a good deal. The paper also describes the test/demo projects at UDel plus four DoD pilot projects in addition to Fort Carson. I've just had time to skim so far, but it appears well worth the read, so here's the link again: https://www.veic.org/documents/default-source/resources/reports/evt-rd-electric-vehicles-grid-resource-final-report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks - looks like a worthwhile paper. I'll finish it in a bit.

It's somewhat funny/sad that Vermont thinks they need a 'study' to decide if V2G will work there - it's not like electrons change shape when they cross the border after traveling from Delaware. :lol: It's a good money-maker for them, though, as there's plenty of funding available for papers and studies. As some point, though, one has to call for Igor to Pull the Switch!

I'm not going to get my knickers in a knot about "...the impact of this backflow on the battery..." because the rest of us call this " driving" and we do it at least a couple of times each week. It's an absurd statement - it's akin to saying that the battery is only covered by warranty when we're charging it...

I still think that we should look to Europe for the best info because while some in the US are 'studying' and 'talking' about V2G, Europe's doing it.

Review the five pillars of the Third Industrial Revolution, please - it's the law of the land for the entire EU.

edit... [crash... Hey Mack - where do you want these pillars? Over there, please... ]
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=333790#p333790

Pillar 1: they're at 25% green electricity already and they're heading to 35% by 2020.

Pillar 2: Germany's converted one million buildings in the last seven years - they're producing small amounts of [excess] green electricity and a third of a million net jobs.

Pillar 3: Storage. The sun's not always shining...the wind blows at night and you've got to have the electricity during the day... The water tables can be down for hydroelectricity due to climate change drought... These are intermittent energies and we've got to store them. We at the EU level are in favor of ALL storage: batteries, flywheels, capacitors, air compression, water pumping, we like them all! But I must say we put most of our focus at the center of all these storage networks on hydrogen [using electrolysis and fuel cells]. Engineers, this is a tiny thermodynamic loss compared to bringing oil, coal, gas, and uranium every step of conversion and loss to the end user.

Pillar 4 - this is where the internet revolution combines with the new distributed renewable energies to create a nervous system for the new general purpose technology platform. We're using off the shelf internet technology and IT technology and we're transforming the power grid in Europe into an energy internet - a distributed smart grid. ... Just like we create information, store it in digital, and share it on-line. Deutsche Telekom has tested successfully the smart grid across Germany. Storage is now in with E.ON and Hydrogenics as well - they're just putting it on-line.

Pillar 5 - logistics. Electric vehicles are here; fuel cell cars, trucks, and buses between 2015 and 2017 by the six major auto companies - this is a done deal - these are fuel cell vehicles. We'll be able to plug-in our vehicles anywhere, wherever we park across the country there'll will be a parking [spot] plug right there...plug it back into the main grid which is distributed and get green electricity. Let's say you're at work - keep that computer on. So if that electricity price goes up on the grid the computer will tell your car to send your electricity back to the grid. We're already beginning to do that in Europe [on a small scale].

These five pillars are nothing - they're components. It's only when we connect them that we have what we call the general purpose technology platform. It's an infrastructure technology platform. Do not make the mistake that President Obama made...he got bad advice. He wanted a green economy, he still wants a green economy, he spent billions and billions of dollars of tax money for a green economy - it isn't here. Because he spent it on isolated, siloed, pilot projects. So they'd invest in a solar factory in one state, an electric car factory in another state - unconnected! This is an infrastructure revolution.

/edit

We can (and some have) linked articles from disgruntled members of the German "old energy guard" that tell much the same story that GM did about seat belts and catalytic converters - "it's the end of the world as we know it." GM was wrong and the propaganda is now seen for what it was. In Germany, E-on and the other big companies said it wouldn't work as well - but now they're doing it.

EU V2G search results:
http://cordis.europa.eu/search/result_en?q=V2G

Here's one of the groups tasked by the EU to develop a standard V2G interface for the EU - they demonstrated it in 2012.
http://www.smartv2g.eu/

In that sense, the main objective targeted by the SMARTV2G Project aims at connecting the electric vehicle to the grid by enabling controlled flow of energy and power through safe, secure, energy efficient and convenient transfer of electricity and data...

This interdisciplinary group of the energy industry, alternative energy components developers, software & embedded systems developers, and technological R&D centres are strongly committed to efficiently coordinate their resources over the 36 months duration of the project in order to be able to reach all expected project outcomes.

Our up-to-date V2G interface prototypes will be demonstrated at the EC stand and at the Denso stand at the 2012 ITS World Congress in Vienna.

Here's an executive summary from Navigant Research on V2G tech released in late 2013:
http://www.navigantresearch.com/research/vehicle-to-grid-technologies

Vehicle to grid (V2G) technologies have been in development since the beginning of the modern electric vehicle era, but are only now beginning to emerge in revenue-generating applications. The U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) has been a significant proponent of the technology, investing around $20 million in 2013 to install 500 V2G-enabled plug-in electric vehicles (PEVs) at bases in specific U.S. electricity markets. Additionally, demonstrations and pilot projects using fleet vehicles in the United States, several Western European countries, and Japan are beginning to show returns and prove that V2G technologies can serve as effective assets in various grid services.

Electricity markets in Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries and developing economies with expected high penetrations of PEVs, like China, are likely to adopt electricity market structures and rules that enable greater opportunities for V2G business models in efforts to make the grid more energy efficient. Increased percentage penetrations of wind and solar in specific countries and regions will create a greater need for energy storage to both optimize integration of these resources and balance frequency disturbances created from their variability in generation. Grids with high percentages of wind resources in generation mixes will likely have higher returns for frequency regulation services. Navigant Research forecasts that global V2G frequency regulation revenue will reach $190.7 million by 2022.

This Navigant Research report analyzes the market opportunity for V2G technologies to be used to support grid reliability and stability. The study considers various policy factors associated with the growth of V2G, as well as significant market drivers and barriers. Global market forecasts for V2G-enabled PEVs and V2G capacity and revenue, segmented by region, extend through 2022. The report also examines the major V2G technologies and case studies and profiles key market participants.

It appears CA has taken notice as well:
http://insideevs.com/california-offers-4-million-funding-smart-charging-v2g/

Group 2: Grid communication interfaces for plug-in electric vehicle charging to support vehicle-to-grid services.

http://www.swri.org/9what/releases/2014/vehicle-to-grid.htm#.VPPoPE0tGUk

San Antonio – Jan. 14, 2014 – Southwest Research Institute has deployed the first vehicle-to-grid aggregation system qualified by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) to manage charging activities for a fleet of electric delivery trucks. The SwRI system suspends vehicle charging when the electric grid frequency drops too far below 60 Hertz, the normal operating frequency. This novel smart grid system demonstrates enabling technologies to support stable electric power delivery...

“ERCOT qualification is an important step for this program,” said Mitchem. “Being qualified means that the fleet owner can bid energy services regularly into the ERCOT market and get paid for those services. The fleet owner is now able to take advantage of the normal vehicle downtime to generate additional revenue by making stored energy available to the grid.”

“One of the technical challenges in this project was to develop a real-time embedded system that could monitor and log frequency and power and react to events in less than one second,” said SwRI Research Engineer Gerardo Trevino. “Our real-time system reacts in less than half a second, including all hardware and software delays.” When the system detects grid frequency dropping below the set point, it automatically suspends charging until grid frequency recovers, at which point it resumes vehicle charging. The system is unique in that it operates autonomously, saving valuable time normally lost in human intervention and communications. The SwRI system keeps ERCOT informed of its current power available and status through regular telemetry.

It looks like we've had wider-scale fleet testing in the US than I thought - UDel/100 vehicle fleet - 2010. It looks like some of the AC Propulsion cars are in Norway participating in V2G demos there.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/delv2g-20100122.html

In September 2009, Delaware Gov. Jack Markell signed Senate Bill 153, which rewards owners of V2G technology for plugging into the grid, compensating them for electricity sent back to the grid at the same rate they pay for electricity to charge their car battery. (The signing ceremony was held at AutoPort.)

Welcome to the future - already in progress.

 

[mbender]

Welcome to the future - already in progress.

Now we just need to distribute that future... here's to a distributed future! ;-)

 

[AndyH]

Welcome to the future - already in progress.

Now we just need to distribute that future... here's to a distributed future! ;-)

The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.

I expect we'll hear from Case and Molly any time now.

 

[RegGuheert]

It looks like we've had wider-scale fleet testing in the US than I thought - UDel/100 vehicle fleet - 2010. It looks like some of the AC Propulsion cars are in Norway participating in V2G demos there.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/delv2g-20100122.html

In September 2009, Delaware Gov. Jack Markell signed Senate Bill 153, which rewards owners of V2G technology for plugging into the grid, compensating them for electricity sent back to the grid at the same rate they pay for electricity to charge their car battery. (The signing ceremony was held at AutoPort.)

That sounds like V2G net metering, which is completely insufficient to make this technology work. Net metering PV is a net benefit to the consumer since it requires the utilities to take the power whenever it is produced. V2G, OTOH, is the opposite. It is the utility taking power from the consumer whenever they deem necessary. If the utilities need the electricity to stabilize their system, then assumedly it is worth more to them than at any most other times. Likewise, when they restore the charge to the BEV, it must be during a time when it is worth less to them.

I don't see any consumers signing up for this arrangement without being compensated in a way that allows them to pay for at least some part of the battery system costs.

 

[AndyH]

It looks like we've had wider-scale fleet testing in the US than I thought - UDel/100 vehicle fleet - 2010. It looks like some of the AC Propulsion cars are in Norway participating in V2G demos there.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/delv2g-20100122.html

In September 2009, Delaware Gov. Jack Markell signed Senate Bill 153, which rewards owners of V2G technology for plugging into the grid, compensating them for electricity sent back to the grid at the same rate they pay for electricity to charge their car battery. (The signing ceremony was held at AutoPort.)

That sounds like V2G net metering, which is completely insufficient to make this technology work.

To make what technology work? All it takes for V2G to 'work' is the ability to move electrons back and forth, just as a faucet works sufficiently when it is able to start and stop the flow of water on demand. V2G is a tool - it can be used for stone-simple demand control, or it can be used for frequency support, or back-up power. V2G as a component of the Third Industrial Revolution results in a very different set of possibilities than any of the simple tests being conducted in the US. Go up a few posts to Norway for a look at cash flow to a BEV owner - $10,000 per year over the lifetime of the car. If a lifetime is 10 years/100,000 miles, that's $1000/year. That's seven years of FREE driving or a new battery every five years for a Smart owner...

 

[RegGuheert]

Go up a few posts to Norway for a look at cash flow to a BEV owner - $10,000 per year over the lifetime of the car. If a lifetime is 10 years/100,000 miles, that's $1000/year. That's seven years of FREE driving or a new battery every five years for a Smart owner...

That's little consolation for BEV owners in Delaware. The "law of the land," as you like to say, is that they get nothing for letting the utility cycle their batteries. Read again what you posted that I responded to:

It looks like we've had wider-scale fleet testing in the US than I thought - UDel/100 vehicle fleet - 2010. It looks like some of the AC Propulsion cars are in Norway participating in V2G demos there.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/delv2g-20100122.html

In September 2009, Delaware Gov. Jack Markell signed Senate Bill 153, which rewards owners of V2G technology for plugging into the grid, compensating them for electricity sent back to the grid at the same rate they pay for electricity to charge their car battery. (The signing ceremony was held at AutoPort.)

No one in their right mind would let the utility cycle their BEV battery without compensation.

 

[AndyH]

Go up a few posts to Norway for a look at cash flow to a BEV owner - $10,000 per year over the lifetime of the car. If a lifetime is 10 years/100,000 miles, that's $1000/year. That's seven years of FREE driving or a new battery every five years for a Smart owner...

That's little consolation for BEV owners in Delaware. The "law of the land," as you like to say, is that they get nothing for letting the utility cycle their batteries. Read again what you posted that I responded to:

It looks like we've had wider-scale fleet testing in the US than I thought - UDel/100 vehicle fleet - 2010. It looks like some of the AC Propulsion cars are in Norway participating in V2G demos there.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/delv2g-20100122.html

In September 2009, Delaware Gov. Jack Markell signed Senate Bill 153, which rewards owners of V2G technology for plugging into the grid, compensating them for electricity sent back to the grid at the same rate they pay for electricity to charge their car battery. (The signing ceremony was held at AutoPort.)

No one in their right mind would let the utility cycle their BEV battery without compensation.

If you desire to understand, I recommend clicking links and becoming familiar with the projects being discussed, rather than just nit-picking a quote. I've tended to select short highlights as my usual process of providing a full and complete examination has met with significant criticism from people that refuse to read. I did not intend that comment to be an in-depth example of the 'best' of V2G.

I'm not a fan of that particular piece of legislation, but I was surprised to see that SOMETHING was happening in the US WRT V2G. I still much prefer the holistic approach in Europe that is progressing by law with a fully-formed plan rather than our fits and starts piecemeal approach. Piecemeal = failure as can be seen by President Obama's BEV promotion efforts. As those have been highlighted in this thread already as well, I won't waste anyone's time repeating that info.

 

[RegGuheert]

I did not intend that comment to be an in-depth example of the 'best' of V2G.

It matters not what you intended. It is the reality of what went on in Delaware. Corporate interests apparently got their way to create legislation which will kill V2G there until the law can be replaced. And the article tried to make it sound like it was a good thing.

 

[ydnas7]

some back of envelope maths

J = (1 x 10-9 x (700 x 44.5 / 0.01) = 0.00089 [mol/s].
ambient Steel 10^-9 0.003115 11.214 22.428 672.84 0.67284

ambient Al ? 10^-8 0.03115 112.14 224.28 6728.4 6.7284

If pressure was maintained at 700 bar, then a 1cm thick 1m2 sheet of Steel would lose 670grams hydrogen over a month
Similarly, for Al, it would be 6.7kgs of H2 loss over a month.

hmmmmmm

 

[AndyH]

I did not intend that comment to be an in-depth example of the 'best' of V2G.

It matters not what you intended. It is the reality of what went on in Delaware. Corporate interests apparently got their way to create legislation which will kill V2G there until the law can be replaced. And the article tried to make it sound like it was a good thing.

I hope that doesn't surprise you, Reg. Most of the fiefdoms in this country are controlled by 'corporate interests' and the politicians they own. As I said - I posted it only because I was happy to learn that SOMETHING was being done in this country. I agree with your suggestion that the pricing is good for the industry and bad for consumers.

Conversely, the Texas project isn't really V2G because energy's not being drawn from the battery - they're just throttling charging. We don't need V2G for that - we just need a smart grid. Notice too that in this very pro-business state that a fleet that installs this tech is paid handsomely, but that it's not available to use 'little people'. That at least suggests that it is possible to deploy a system in the US whereby BEV operators are paid a reasonable sum for services rendered. If this progresses in the US, if we adopt the EU system or develop one of our own at least as capable, then we "could" deploy a system where we can use our smart phone to select the best paying grid support company just as many Americans can choose a different power company. That's the type of capability on tap for TIR in Europe and is one of the more appealing aspects of a bi-directional smart grid where PV and EVs are connected to the 'energy internet'.

 

[RegGuheert]

Conversely, the Texas project isn't really V2G because energy's not being drawn from the battery - they're just throttling charging. We don't need V2G for that - we just need a smart grid.

You don't even need a smart grid to do that. You simply need the electric vehicle chargers to drop off the grid as the frequency drops.

In order to prevent discontinuity in the load, you need to spread the drops over a range of frequencies. If you use a uniform distribution of drop frequencies you can create a feedback mechanism with a gain that only depends upon the number of electric whiles involved. (The gain will increase as more EVs join the grid, but perhaps the slope with frequency can decrease with newer models to compensate.) There needs to be both variable hysteresis in the frequency of reconnect and a variable time delay to ensure that the load does not return too quickly or in an all-at-once manner. The drop-off-frequency, the amount of hysteresis and the reconnect delay can be set randomly and independently by each BEV after each disconnect to ensure that some BEVs do not always have a benefit over all the others in access to the grid.

This can all be accomplished by using standards developed by BEV manufacturers in concert with utilities to ensure that the load characteristics will match the limitations of their generation capabilities.

This approach is precisely parallel to what is already done with PV generators today in the case of over-frequency of the grid. The only difference is that in the case of the BEVs, they will still want to draw the energy from the grid at a later point, whereas with the PV generators, the energy is simply never produced and never will be.

While this approach does not directly compensate the BEV owners for the drops in charging that occur, it may ultimately become mandatory (statutory) for BEVs in order to allow them to be sold. Everyone ultimately benefits if grid stability is improved.

The next step in the process beyond this is to have those BEVs (and connected H2 FCEVs, if there are any) gradually come online to provide energy onto the grid as the frequency continues to drop. This is where a smart grid becomes necessary, since there needs to be some way to compensate the owners for their service.

The unfortunate fact is that the current "charge-at-night" mantra that is so pervasive with today's 20th-century grid needs to transition to "charge-during-the-daytime" as we transition to more renewable generators on the grid. Otherwise, we will create a requirement for a ridiculous amount of nighttime storage which will simply be unachievable. To me it has always been axiomatic that in a fully-renewable system, the loads need to be made as flexible as possible in order to accommodate the limitations of the generators to minimize the amount of storage that is required. Loads such as BEVs which are also energy storage devises need to take on a special role in the process.

Notice too that in this very pro-business state that a fleet that installs this tech is paid handsomely, but that it's not available to use 'little people'. That at least suggests that it is possible to deploy a system in the US whereby BEV operators are paid a reasonable sum for services rendered. If this progresses in the US, if we adopt the EU system or develop one of our own at least as capable, then we "could" deploy a system where we can use our smart phone to select the best paying grid support company just as many Americans can choose a different power company. That's the type of capability on tap for TIR in Europe and is one of the more appealing aspects of a bi-directional smart grid where PV and EVs are connected to the 'energy internet'.

Agreed.

 

[GRA]

The future is always in progress, Andy, the question is when will it get here on other than a demonstration scale. The sources you cite all indicate to me that the answer remains 'not for years yet'; we're still collecting data and developing all this.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

DOE to award up to $35M to advance fuel cell and hydrogen technologies; fuel cell range extenders

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03/20150303-h2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Short quote:

Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Technologies R&D. Subtopics include

Microbial Biomass Conversion
Catalysts and Supports
Integrated Intelligent Hydrogen Dispensers for 700 bar Gaseous Refueling of Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles
Innovative Hydrogen Delivery Pipeline Manufacturing
Demonstrations and Deployments to Enable Early Adoption of Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Technologies

Design, Deployment, and Validation of Advanced, Low-cost Mobile Hydrogen Refuelers
Demonstration and Deployment of Battery - Fuel Cell Hybrid Electric Vehicle
America’s Climate Communities of Excellence

 

[AndyH]

The future is always in progress, Andy, the question is when will it get here on other than a demonstration scale. The sources you cite all indicate to me that the answer remains 'not for years yet'; we're still collecting data and developing all this.

Then I guess we'll have to decide what "here" means. I expect that if the demonstration projects didn't return enough actionable data that Chancellor Merkel wouldn't have decided to mandate that her country turn in that direction (and that goes for the entire EU and China as well). There are likely plenty of holes in the data, but there's more than enough to allow revamping the various systems so that the grid's ready when the cars with V2G arrive. We don't stand in the driveway and wait for all the lights to turn green before heading to the grocery store.

I'm keeping my eyes on Germany. Here - want some popcorn?

 

[RegGuheert]

I expect that if the demonstration projects didn't return enough actionable data that Chancellor Merkel wouldn't have decided to mandate that her country turn in that direction (and that goes for the entire EU and China as well).

Angela Merkel is a quantum chemist, which really gives her no qualification to make judgments on the electrical grid or energy systems in general. She is being advised by Jeremy Rifkin, who is against affordable electricity:

The prospect of cheap fusion energy is the worst thing that could happen to the planet.

Rifkin doesn't want cheap energy, he wants expensive energy. And that is what Germany is getting: some of the most expensive energy on the planet.

I'm keeping my eyes on Germany. Here - want some popcorn?

Me, too. I've started a thread so that we can discuss both the good and the bad of their ongoing efforts.

 

[RegGuheert]

The future is always in progress, Andy, the question is when will it get here on other than a demonstration scale. The sources you cite all indicate to me that the answer remains 'not for years yet'; we're still collecting data and developing all this.

Guy, Andy's view is that of a military analyst. Military strategists don't care about costs, they only care about capabilities. If it is possible and it helps accomplish their mission, they will put it into practice. Now.

But broad deployment of technology requires much more than deployment of technology in the military. Often a decade or more passes between when the military deploys technology and when it sees widespread use in society.

Here is an example: I first saw a military GPS receiver in 1988. It was in a 19-inch rack and was about 18 inches high. It took about 20 minutes to warm up and lock onto enough satellites to provide a location. About 15 years later, you could buy a battery-powered one for about $400. Today, GPS receivers are a tiny circuit that occupies only a small fraction of a large system-on-a-chip and it adds probably a fraction of a penny to the total cost of the unit.

 

[RegGuheert]

I saw the thread. Your assertion that the Chancellor is not qualified as a practicing scientist to evaluate science is...interesting.

If Merkel is conducting science on a national scale, then that is a gigantic mistake. From a technical standpoint, Energiewende is an large, multidiscipline engineering project. Quantum chemistry is so far removed from anything needed for this project that her background does not give her any real qualifications in this arena.

 

[RegGuheert]

How did you make the massive jump from "analyst" to "strategist"? You know those are different, right? :shock:

I sure do. Read it again:

Guy, Andy's view is that of a military analyst. Military strategists don't care about costs, they only care about capabilities. If it is possible and it helps accomplish their mission, they will put it into practice. Now.

An analyst such does not work in a vacuum. They need to get their direction from someone and give their work products to someone. The end user of their analysis is the strategist. Otherwise, their work is for naught.

I don't need or want your translation efforts. Thanks anyway.

If that's the case, then you should send Guy a PM instead.