Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
GRA said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Logic requires deduction with all the information, not just a subset. Remember, they did this with the solar industry as well. It's the grown up thing to do, subsidize the industry until it can stand on its own two feet. Ending the subsidies prematurely is a clear sign of killing the industry. But you knew that right?
Who says that BEVs are capable of standing on their own feet in China yet? It's not just subsidies, it's also mandates. The main thing driving BEV sales there, aside from the subsidies, is the fact that the government has made it almost impossible to get a license for an ICE in many major Chinese cities, but getting one for a ZEV is easy. Similarly, here in California, I've always contended (and surveys have backed this up) that especially for the higher end cars, the HOV perk is the most valuable selling point.
The way to show that BEVs are fully capable of standing on their own is to remove all direct to the customer subsidies, perks
and mandates, and see what happens.
That's a rather constrained interpretation. The ZEV mandate is inclusive of BEV's and FCEV's. So which form will survive is pretty obvious.
At the moment, there's no evidence that either can survive without government help. Every time that subsidies are reduced anywhere, PEV sales plunge.
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
And "you're talking from both sides of your mouth" (chinese idiom) when you complain about ZEV mandates, while advocating for H2 over fossil fuels (in a past-life discussion).
Nope, what I'm for and what the political reality is are two different things.
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
As soon as the fossil fuel subsidies are removed (tax breaks, funding for naval battle groups to protect middle east oil interests), then I'm all for removal of the ZEV subsidies. Until then, the mandate is just a crude means to level the playing field with our children's lungs at stake.
Certainly, but you'll notice I mentioned "direct to the customer subsidies", i.e. not indirect ones such as you mention. I'm all for including those externalities in the price of oil, and have said so many times in this forum. But until that happens, the average customer remains ignorant of those factors, or simply doesn't consider them, because
everyone is paying for them. What they do consider is money or time directly benefiting them through subsidies and perks, or the ability to drive a car vs. not being able to do so through mandates.
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
You have a quip in your signature. Practice what you preach and turn in your ICE vehicle and get a used Chevy Volt.
I considered doing so, but no Volt is AWD and that's a requirement for me. I also thought about a Prime, whose price/AER/fuel efficiency is a better match for my usage, but again no AWD, mediocre driving dynamics and poor controls plus a lack of cargo space rules it out. The Prius AWD has the cargo space, but suffers from the other Prius issues as well as being a pure fossil-fuel burner. The Outlander is too big, too clumsy and gets worse mpg than my current car, and the Crosstrek falls short on cargo space ala' the Prime. The Niro comes closest to my needs, but again no AWD. Sadly, GM didn't make the 2nd Gen Volt an AWD CUV despite numerous requests from customers (me too) for them to do that.
Then there's the desire on my part not to buy another car that burns any fossil fuels. As I expect my next car to be the last car I'll ever buy (by the time that one reaches the end of its life, I'll probably be at an age where it'll be safer for all concerned if the car does all the driving, and it'll be car-shared), I really want it be a ZEV, so it makes more sense to save my money for when one of those meets my needs. Depending on the RAV4 PHEV specs, I may well be on the horns of a dilemma. Ford's already ruled themselves out by saying that the Escape PHEV won't be available AWD, only the HEV will be.
I practice what I preach in the other ways noted in my sig, using my car as little as possible, nor have I flown anywhere in almost two decades. My feet, bike, and public (electrified) rapid transit use far less energy and resources than any car.