I test-drove a 2013 "S"; Is it too close to call?

[planet4ever]

I make this 64-mile roundtrip commute an average of about 14 times per month... (sometimes twice/week and sometimes 4times/week). I intend to purchase additional annual lease miles to increase to 15Kmiles/yr. I have calculated my gas savings to include 30K miles (over my two-year lease) at a guesstimate of gas costing $3.50/gallon on a vehicle which gets 30mpg.
I will look into the charging-at-work options... including having this L2 or 240 charging outlet installation.

In my mind having 240v 20A charging available for two hours a day swings the pendulum from "improbable" to "feasible with dedication".

Incidentally, as we use the terms here L2 charging is equivalent to 240v charging. 20A is the rate at which the EVSE passes energy to the car. Circuits are also rating in amperage, but you will need a 30A circuit to support a 20A EVSE (don't ask!). The cheapest way to go to get a 20A EVSE is almost certainly EVSE Upgrade, which many of us are enthusiastic about. On the wiring end you need to hire an electrician to install a 30A 240v circuit. For the EVSE upgrade it should be terminated with an L6-20 outlet. The cost will be heavily affected by where you want the outlet, where the electrical panel is, and how heavily loaded the panel already is.

Assuming a conservative 15¢/kWh, 28 hour/mo at a 4.8kW charging rate (20A x 240v) would cost the church about $20/month. You would want to discuss with them an appropriate way of handling that.

Ray

 

[TonyWilliams]

In my mind having 240v 20A charging available for two hours a day swings the pendulum from "improbable" to "feasible with dedication".

You can do it with or without the midday charging in the summer, but in the winter, there is just no way to consistently do this without midday charging. You have to provide for all the variables, which for you is cold on the battery, contanimation on the roadway (standing water, slush and snow), heater use and wind.

So, having said that, I absolutely recommend a 25 or 30 amp / 240 volt circiut installed for your use at the destination as described above. Then, get the EVSE (the car's extension cord with a "brick" in the line) modified to 20 amps. The total for both of these might be about $500. In two hours, you can put about 8kWh of usable energy into the car, at 4 miles per kWh of economy is about 32 miles. In the winter, you can easily get 3 miles per kWh economy, so about 24 miles extra while at your destination. And you can preheat the car for your trip home.

Then, absolutely get the SV or SL model. The much more efficient heat pump is not an option with the S model, plus the SV or SL will have the faster charger that can use 20amps. For cold on the battery, I hope you have an overnight indoor garage that is warmer than outside in the winter. If not, it's not a deal breaker. Preheat the car before you leave each morning (the car has a timer, or you can send a message from a computer or smartphone).

This should give you enough margin for virtually all conditions. Please check out the Range Chart here.

 

[lencap]

Sorry to resurrect this post, but the added advantage of the non base models is a more rapid charger. The base model is the "old" style versus the new style which has twice the capacity. If you are in a marginal charging situation having the faster charger in the SV or higher models may be significant. Add to that the more efficient heater/A/C system and the upgraded car offers quite a bit more for not a lot more money. It may make your marginal commute a very feasible event.

I routinely charge my car at a 240 public location and can gain 25+ miles of range per hour.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
But on the base model (S), you can add the the charge package which adds the 6 kW onboard charger, CHAdeMO port along w/rearview camera. But, you still don't get the more efficient hybrid heater.

http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/attachment/13leafproduct3/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; outlines things.

 

[johnqh]

The worst case scenario, charge at the Nissan dealer on the way home.

 

[johnqh]

Another option is to wait for Fiat 500e. It will be available for California soon. May spread to other states in a couple of years.

According to the comparison page:

http://www.fiatusa.com/en/competitivecompare/500e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The battery is "24 kWh Liquid Cooled/Heated". So it should maintain the range better than Leaf in cold winter. Also, its range is simply higher than Leaf.

Of course, it is much smaller, lighter, more scary on highway. So you need to weight the pro and cons.

 

[cwerdna]

Another option is to wait for Fiat 500e. It will be available for California soon. May spread to other states in a couple of years.

I doubt it. Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne has already mentioned they'll lose $10K a pop on those. Why would they sell them outside CA, esp. non-CARB emission states?

 

[RonDawg]

Another option is to wait for Fiat 500e. It will be available for California soon. May spread to other states in a couple of years.

I doubt it. Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne has already WHINED VERY LOUDLY they'll lose $10K a pop on those. Why would they sell them outside CA, esp. non-CARB emission states?

I fixed your post

 

[johnqh]

Another option is to wait for Fiat 500e. It will be available for California soon. May spread to other states in a couple of years.

I doubt it. Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne has already mentioned they'll lose $10K a pop on those. Why would they sell them outside CA, esp. non-CARB emission states?

Because EVERYONE is losing money on EV, and everyone knows it is the future. Toyota lost money on Prius for many years when it was released.

It make a lot of sense for commuter cars to be EV, and Smart E and Fiat 500e are competitively priced against their ICE siblings. I think those two will see their EV sales to be a big part of their overall sales very quickly. As sales increase, cost goes down. This time next year, Fiat probably will lose only $5000 per 500e. Then it will break even in another year or two.

 

[LeafinThePark]

Because EVERYONE is losing money on EV, and everyone knows it is the future. Toyota lost money on Prius for many years when it was released.

At the risk of drifting further off topic...did not Tesla just announce a profit? I saw something in passing and that is what I thought I had read...

Back on topic....curious what the OP ended up doing. Based on my experience in Minneapolis I would say he is a great candidate for a Leaf. I got my Leaf in March and have been driving it through some pretty tough conditions. I think the Worst I did was 3.5m/Kwh on a day where we had 6-8 inches of snow/slush, 15deg, and plenty of wind. I drove 50 miles that day on one charge and got home with 24% charge and 18 miles showing on the GOM. Now that spring seems to finally be here I am doing a lot better. Starting at an 80% charge, I drove 58 miles and got home with 26% on the battery and 30miles on the GOM. For the week I am at 4.8m/Kwh.

 

[apvbguy]

Because EVERYONE is losing money on EV, and everyone knows it is the future. Toyota lost money on Prius for many years when it was released.

At the risk of drifting further off topic...did not Tesla just announce a profit? I saw something in passing and that is what I thought I had read...

FYI:
Yes Tesla announced a profit:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/05/08/tesla-first-profit/2145065/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[johnqh]

On per-car bases, Tesla loses money too.

"Under GAAP reporting rules, excluding a one-time gain, earnings per share were 0 cents, the company said.."

"Tesla gets government zero emission vehicle (ZEV) credits for each car its builds, credits that can then be auctioned to other automakers to offset their non-zero emission vehicles. The company income from sales of ZEVs came to about $68 million in the quarter, or 12% of revenue."

 

[TonyWilliams]

Another option is to wait for Fiat 500e. It will be available for California soon. May spread to other states in a couple of years.

I doubt it. Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne has already mentioned they'll lose $10K a pop on those. Why would they sell them outside CA, esp. non-CARB emission states?

Because EVERYONE is losing money on EV, and everyone knows it is the future. Toyota lost money on Prius for many years when it was released.

The Prius wasn't produced to meet CARB ZEV rules... But the Rav4 EV is. You won't ever see that sold out of California, and after 2600 are made, it will not be sold at all.

Fiat/Chrysler is not going to sell the 500e anywhere but CA, just like Toyota.

Obviously, I reserve my judgement should CARB rules change (the manufacturers are complaining to EPA to try and get CARB ZEV rules cancelled / reduced). If CARB blinks at all, there immediately won't be a Fiat 500e or a Toyota Rav4 EV or eGolf or Focus EV or Fit EV.

The other two of the "big six" that are required to produce ZEV or buy credits (that Tesla just made $68 million on) are Nissan LEAF and GM Spark EV.

Nissan / Infiniti will continue, but GM? Who knows? It depends how hungry they are to push Frankenplug and gum things up for Nissan.

BMW and Tesla will continue on, also.

 

[mlapratt]

OP here...
After test-driving the "S" in late March (cold snowy windy 64-mile commute), I decided to wait til the weather warmed up a bit and test-drive the commute again. the dealership convinced me to try the commute in mid-april (65 degree day 64-mile roundtrip commute) in the "SV". So I did. And I made it roundtrip with about 18% charge remaining.

So... last week put a deposit down for the "SV". I hope to have possession by early next week.

 

[TonyWilliams]

OP here...
After test-driving the "S" in late March (cold snowy windy 64-mile commute), I decided to wait til the weather warmed up a bit and test-drive the commute again. the dealership convinced me to try the commute in mid-april (65 degree day 64-mile roundtrip commute) in the "SV". So I did. And I made it roundtrip with about 18% charge remaining.

So... last week put a deposit down for the "SV". I hope to have possession by early next week.

Congrats!!! What's the plan when the cold and snow return and the battery is 10-15% degraded?

 

[johnqh]

OP here...
After test-driving the "S" in late March (cold snowy windy 64-mile commute), I decided to wait til the weather warmed up a bit and test-drive the commute again. the dealership convinced me to try the commute in mid-april (65 degree day 64-mile roundtrip commute) in the "SV". So I did. And I made it roundtrip with about 18% charge remaining.

So... last week put a deposit down for the "SV". I hope to have possession by early next week.

Congrats!!! What's the plan when the cold and snow return and the battery is 10-15% degraded?

In cold weather, it is unlikely the battery would degrade quickly.

 

[mlapratt]

I have a backup ICE vehicle. And I can tricklecharge at work (which I know won't give me much, but it's at least Something). And I'm leasing. So I can give it back to Nissan at the end of 2 years if I decide the battery degradation has become a problem.

 

[TonyWilliams]

OP here...
After test-driving the "S" in late March (cold snowy windy 64-mile commute), I decided to wait til the weather warmed up a bit and test-drive the commute again. the dealership convinced me to try the commute in mid-april (65 degree day 64-mile roundtrip commute) in the "SV". So I did. And I made it roundtrip with about 18% charge remaining.

So... last week put a deposit down for the "SV". I hope to have possession by early next week.

Congrats!!! What's the plan when the cold and snow return and the battery is 10-15% degraded?

In cold weather, it is unlikely the battery would degrade quickly.

True, cold weather won't do that. I'm not sure where the poster is, but even cold places like Wisconsin and Chicago get smoking hot in the summer, and the battery will degrade regardless. If the whole plan is it will never degrade in the time he plans to own and use it, that seems fine. Maybe it's a 24 month lease.

The not super hot San Francisco Bay Area already has two LEAFs with 15% degradation.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I have a backup ICE vehicle. And I can tricklecharge at work (which I know won't give me much, but it's at least Something). And I'm leasing. So I can give it back to Nissan at the end of 2 years if I decide the battery degradation has become a problem.

Well played and congrats (again)!

 

[johnqh]

True, cold weather won't do that. I'm not sure where the poster is, but even cold places like Wisconsin and Chicago get smoking hot in the summer, and the battery will degrade regardless. If the whole plan is it will never degrade in the time he plans to own and use it, that seems fine. Maybe it's a 24 month lease.

The not super hot San Francisco Bay Area already has two LEAFs with 15% degradation.

San Francisco is mild, but south bay and east bay are way hotter, easily 15F hotter in summer.

According to weather channel, White Lake MI average high is 81 degrees in July. The weather is actually colder than San Jose.