Intelligent Nav System

[dsurber]

Presumably the Nav will warn you when the indicated trip is longer than the remaining range. You will have to adjust mentally for hills, wind, and other conditions that the Nav does not know about ... like, there is no charging available at the destination.

Unfortunately, no.

I played with the mapping feature of the nav for a good long while at my test drive. Much longer than I spent driving the car. So far as I could tell the does not warn you about range limits. It was my impression that the actual mapping function could easily be unchanged from any other car or portable GPS.

The test drive was inside the Moscone Convention Center in San Francisco so the GPS could not see any satellites. It thought it was at a mall near the Seattle-Tacoma airport. I entered several destinations around the Seattle area to see how the nav responded. It does compute driving distance, not crow-flies distance. It appears to be totally unaware of anything else such as elevation change, traffic conditions, battery charge, weather, etc. Admittedly some of those things would not have been available since the car had zero or very bad radio reception. But for sure it knew the state of the battery (83 miles remaining) and it did not take that into account at all. It responded exactly the same to a destination 50 miles away as it did to one 180 miles away.

My wife and I own at least five GPSs so I'm very familiar with nav devices. Still, I found the Leaf nav unintuitive. Even after I had worked through the screen layout, I frequently had difficulty doing simple things. Even disregarding all the cool and useful things the mapping function could do but did not, it was still uninspiring.

Sorry about the downer post, but it's my honest report.

 

[garygid]

IF (yes, IF) the LEAF has Crappy-Nav with TuFeu-POI, and Knot-Good Functions, that will make the LEAF experience much less compelling for uses other than "around town".

"Shucks"

 

[evnow]

Reviving this - since there is some discussion of what is more useful - soc or range.

I was planning to start a new "suggestion" thread - but OP has already said what I was planning to write.

Knowing where we are - and where we are planning to go, the range can be calculated quite well. The car knows ...
- Exact elevation cahnges along the route
- Temperature outside & the climate setting of the car
- Various speeds on the roads along the route
- Traffic conditions
- General driving habit of the driver

With all this info, car can estimate the range as well as an experienced human could if not better.

 

[Gonewild]

The Leaf's nav will tell you if you can not make the trip or round trip. But yes it does not know about mountain or lots of hill. Most of my driving is on flat to small hills.

 

[LEAFfan]

Reviving this - since there is some discussion of what is more useful - soc or range.

If you listen (after reading) to those drivers that have been driving EVs for years, they will ALL tell you that SOC is much more important than the graph gauge or range number. Personally, I want an exact percentage so I know when there is 20% left (don't want an estimate) so I can recharge to obtain optimum battery pack life. It looks like the drivers with a ScanGauge II won't have to worry about that because it will be available soon, along with many other readouts.

 

[evnow]

If you listen (after reading) to those drivers that have been driving EVs for years, they will ALL tell you that SOC is much more important than the graph gauge or range number.

That is because the current range shown on LEAF doesn't work well and they naturally fall back on what they are used to. I'm more interested in getting Nissan to improve the Range calculation.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Reviving this - since there is some discussion of what is more useful - soc or range.

I was planning to start a new "suggestion" thread - but OP has already said what I was planning to write.

Knowing where we are - and where we are planning to go, the range can be calculated quite well. The car knows ...
- Exact elevation cahnges along the route
- Temperature outside & the climate setting of the car
- Various speeds on the roads along the route
- Traffic conditions
- General driving habit of the driver

With all this info, car can estimate the range as well as an experienced human could if not better.

The car can't do that well on hills because every driver has different habits on the pedal on hills, there is no way to convey how consumption on an EV is vastly different than an auto until you drive with an SOC meter and see real time kw usage as you drive under different conditions. For more than 50K miles I watched this and there is no way GPS alone will calculate range on hills accurately. For those that don't agree or believe what many long-time EV drivers know, my advice is just wait and see. I know that after two pack cycles on the LEaf about town and on hills I will be able to calculate my range in my head based on past experience, when you drive watching SOC you become VERY in tune with your pack and all the variables that effect range. I'm willing to bet any experienced EV driver can estimate range better than the computer under non-flat conditions. Instead of the useless tress and leafs on the dash they should have put an SOC meter and KW in real time. The entire competition for most efficient driving is just a inaccurate gimmick made up by a marketing person with little EV experience likely.

 

[evnow]

I'm willing to bet any experienced EV driver can estimate range better than the computer under non-flat conditions.

Yes - once upon a time computers couldn't beat world champion chess masters, either.

Anyway, Mark is proclaiming in the plugin story that even a novice ev driver would be better. Not just that - he doesn't suggest improving the algorithm to get better at range estimation at all.

That is like someone who knows the town very well saying the gps navigation devices are useless. Garmin should just sell paper maps.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'm willing to bet any experienced EV driver can estimate range better than the computer under non-flat conditions.

Yes - once upon a time computers couldn't beat world champion chess masters, either.

Anyway, Mark is proclaiming in the plugin story that even a novice ev driver would be better. Not just that - he doesn't suggest improving the algorithm to get better at range estimation at all.

That is like someone who knows the town very well saying the gps navigation devices are useless. Garmin should just sell paper maps.

I know someone personally that is developing to do exactly what you propose and has a contract to supply this for a very well known EV for lack of a better name. Believe me when I tell you it is very complex and the point is that the technology in not here now so SOC is better, once the system can do as you suggest then things will be different. SOS is no different than a fuel gage. I don't see those going away soon.

 

[evnow]

Believe me when I tell you it is very complex and the point is that the technology in not here now ...

I know it is complex. But so is a lot of software we develop on a daily basis.

All the basic pieces of technology are already there. It is a question of integrating.

In any case for a novice driver - if you show her 48% SOC - what exactly is she supposed to understand by that ?

 

[AndyH]

I'm with EVDRIVER on this. My computer/geek background wants to give tech the advantage here, but actual electric miles on the road have shown me that the only thing I can trust is the state of charge. No two trips are the same and range estimates lie.

People used to driving overpowered and 'over-fuel-tanked' ICE aren't aware of the real effects of their right foot, the weather, and terrain. State of charge immediately tells the driver (once they're used to the car) whether they'll be able to make that detour to the mall. Yes - we could do it yesterday, but it was warmer outside and we were at 48% SOC. Today it's colder and we're only at 38% after dusting that Honda a couple of lights back.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'm with EVDRIVER on this. My computer/geek background wants to give tech the advantage here, but actual electric miles on the road have shown me that the only thing I can trust is the state of charge. No two trips are the same and range estimates lie.

People used to driving overpowered and 'over-fuel-tanked' ICE aren't aware of the real effects of their right foot, the weather, and terrain. State of charge immediately tells the driver (once they're used to the car) whether they'll be able to make that detour to the mall. Yes - we could do it yesterday, but it was warmer outside and we were at 48% SOC. Today it's colder and we're only at 38% after dusting that Honda a couple of lights back.

You nailed it on the foot thing, you just have to experience it to understand. I just had a two hour conversation with a person who has been driving an EV exclusively for the last 10 years and has extensive Leaf driving miles and we both agree on the need for SOC and total real time KW consumption as a invaluable tool. Nissan has ignored this against repeated good advice (yes they were told by many) and I can almost assure that one of the key reasons is because the people making these decisions DON'T DRIVE EVs. Yes it's true, most of these people have little to no EV driving experience to the point of complete disbelief. I have sat in front of executives of a major auto maker that were seeking input from experienced EV drivers and not ONE of them had even driven in an EV, ever. These were "think tank" members and final decision makers for one of the most famous auto makers worldwide that have EV programs you all know. In time many things will change in the Leaf, many of which Nissan was advised against. The issue in part is many auto makers don't take EV drivers seriously as "real" consumers, that's a fact a few in the know can attest to first hand. Many marketing folks even want you to believe that LED's on the car will help the range when realistically leaving all that lights on for days won't cost you a block or two of range.

The Leaf shows us all the power the heat and AC use in scary large numbers yet it does not show a real time total consumption for the entire pack which is far more valuable and keeps people form mindlessly monitoring those values VS the total number which is the key. This will make complete sense to those that get some driving experience and even more to those that implement an SOC meter for reference. I think this will be evident once people get their Leaf to the point where it says to charge and there are no miles left on their range indicator but they are not in turtle mode and can in fact keep going at high speeds. Why? Because the scale they use is inaccurate and does not give drivers the real info they need to make range-based and smart charging decisions. This is not a tool for techies or EV nuts, it's a tool the most basic driver can relate to. There are many EV experts out there at the moment, the issue is that few of them have any real practical EV experience. They remind me of the Audiophile reviewers that write reviews on high-end equipment and do the audition in their living room with glass walls and slate floors. I think some will get that one Time will change all this and once people see how this all works in the real world they will understand how the Leaf tree is just a useless marketing toy and waste of gauge space, it is as functional as the flower holder in the Beetle because it ONLY gives feedback after the fact which is generically useless.

 

[garygid]

I am trying to understand, please:

Are you saying that the LEAF's SOC (e-fuel) gauge bars are not accurate, are too course (8%), or are too hard to read?

If the same SOC gauge had 100 divisions and a numeric readout displayed, would that be what you are wanting?

You can easily ignore the "Range Estimate", right?

A ScanGauge II should be able to show the calculated (estimated) SOC, right?

Or, are you wanting an "amp-hours used" meter, rather than (or in addition to) the "estimated SOC" display?

Thanks for some clarification, Gary

 

[EVDRIVER]

There is no use for amp hours, that's not used generally only kw/kwh. The increments are in broad ranges and "jump" and at the end of the scale the range meter stops posting miles and the car keeps going, I know this as a fact. Regardless having the SOC of 1-100%, even if that is the "usable" pack to where warnings come on is a far more accurate way to measure. If the Leaf has a range of 100 miles then 1% is a mile, it does not need to be the ONLY way to estimate range but it is the most accurate overall measure. Having real time consumption tells the driver EXACTLY how a fraction of pedal push will increase consumption and to what degree and if the heat is on the total impact, this trains drivers how every factor impacts consumption as a whole under all conditions. Using a additional tool is sloppy, the car should have this as an option on the display, even if user switchable. The use of Leafs is pointless, and a fun toy and nothing more. replace the leafs with a switchable gauge and it would add great value and a tool that would make drivers much more aware of real world range impact.

If your leaf says 8 miles left and the charge light is on and you need to get home and then it says 0 miles you assume that's it. Well my friend just had that happen and punched it up a hill and it drove like it was fully charged, he went for miles and still no turtle mode. So how much range is left, how much capacity? An SOC meter would be very accurate and give the exact facts. SOC in KWH will also tell you accurately how much capacity the pack has lost over time- oops.

 

[dsurber]

There seems to be some confusion as to what I (the OP) and others are asking for. EVDRIVER and AndyH wrote that a range indicator is useless; I agree. The range depends on too many variables. What we want is to be able to enter a destination into the nav and have it report, accurately, whether or not that trip is possible under current conditions and an estimate of the remaining charge at the end.

EVDRIVER says that as an experienced EV driver he can accurately predict whether a given trip is possible or not. Using only demonstrated, commercial existing technology, a savvy nav in the Leaf could do the same with at least the same accuracy and probably better. This is most definitely not a range indicator. It is an analysis of a specific trip by a specific driver at a specific time. Yes or no; such a trip is possible or not.

The savvy nav knows the state of charge, the driver's style, the terrain, the weather, the traffic on many large roads, and the vehicle's history of making the same trip. There are rumours that it may have access to the history of other Leafs driving parts of the same route. Given all that info it is a straightforward programming task to estimate the energy required to make the trip. If the trip requires 19kWh and the battery has 20kWh available, then the trip is possible with 1kWh cushion. It's just math.

I respect EVDRIVER's experience, but the Leaf is targeted at a mass market. Not every potential or actual Leaf owner is going to think as carefully about range as an EV enthusiast. Saying that such care is a requirement eliminates the vast majority of potential Leaf buyers. On the other hand savvy nav eliminates the requirement that the Leaf driver carefully consider every trip. The savvy nav does the thinking for him/her. And with apologies to EVDRIVER, probably more accurately than any human.

 

[EVDRIVER]

There seems to be some confusion as to what I (the OP) and others are asking for. EVDRIVER and AndyH wrote that a range indicator is useless; I agree. The range depends on too many variables. What we want is to be able to enter a destination into the nav and have it report, accurately, whether or not that trip is possible under current conditions and an estimate of the remaining charge at the end.

EVDRIVER says that as an experienced EV driver he can accurately predict whether a given trip is possible or not. Using only demonstrated, commercial existing technology, a savvy nav in the Leaf could do the same with at least the same accuracy and probably better. This is most definitely not a range indicator. It is an analysis of a specific trip by a specific driver at a specific time. Yes or no; such a trip is possible or not.

The savvy nav knows the state of charge, the driver's style, the terrain, the weather, the traffic on many large roads, and the vehicle's history of making the same trip. There are rumours that it may have access to the history of other Leafs driving parts of the same route. Given all that info it is a straightforward programming task to estimate the energy required to make the trip. If the trip requires 19kWh and the battery has 20kWh available, then the trip is possible with 1kWh cushion. It's just math.

I respect EVDRIVER's experience, but the Leaf is targeted at a mass market. Not every potential or actual Leaf owner is going to think as carefully about range as an EV enthusiast. Saying that such care is a requirement eliminates the vast majority of potential Leaf buyers. On the other hand savvy nav eliminates the requirement that the Leaf driver carefully consider every trip. The savvy nav does the thinking for him/her. And with apologies to EVDRIVER, probably more accurately than any human.

The most intelligent thing the Leaf computer does is give one the range based on the present driving consumption, it does no other calculation based on any other parameters. That is as accurate as it gets, no GPS elevation calculation, no other advanced calculations, on flat ground the entire trip that's great. There is nothing intelligent or advanced about that system, if you have a mountain pass between you and flat ground to start the Leaf will be inaccurate. If you don't believe this to be true, ask any experienced EV driver, ask Chelsea Sexton, or many others. The generic system in the Leaf is fine at times and adding SOC and full consumption is not going to harm a single consumer, only help them. The leaf system is a very basic averaging computation based on the average present consumption, it can't see hills like a driver can and once one knows their EV and can read SOC (easy) they know what to expect. Plenty of ignorant drivers will learn that the hard way when the range suddenly drops through the floor. After driving over 50K miles on an SOC meter and pushing the limits of range to the max I NEVER ran out of charge and I could get all they way down to 1% at my door if I was careful. The Leaf tools are basic, fine for flat ground and "comfortable trips" but they don't teach people how to drive smarter. I predict many aftermarket modifications to this or hopefully a modification to the interface This debate is split in two camps and interesting enough almost all those that don't see the value of SOC have never driven an EV. This does not mean the present system will not work for some drivers but it is flawed and it is not optimal and adding more information is only a benefit, these should both exist and a 12 bar system is plain dumb, even 10 would be better. I can assure you, not disclosing SOC was a done deliberately by Nissan, not as an oversight.

Now lets' all grow Leafs so we can compare efficiency while one climbs a hill and one drives on flat ground, will that tell me who is a more efficient driver? Don't get me wrong, I'm not hypermiler, my last EV had a 160 kw output and I used every bit of it often

 

[dsurber]

This debate is split in two camps and interesting enough almost all those that don't see the value of SOC have never driven an EV. This does not mean the present system will not work for some drivers but it is flawed and it is not optimal and adding more information is only a benefit. I can assure you, not disclosing SOC was a done deliberately by Nissan, not as an oversight.

I (the OP) do not dispute the value of SOC. Nor do I disagree with your assessment of the Leaf's nav . In fact, I'm not sure there is a dispute at all. I and others believe that a relatively low cost improvement in the nav system would greatly benefit the non-enthusiast driver like myself. And we think it is a serious failing by Nissan not to provide us with a savvy nav.

 

[EVDRIVER]

This debate is split in two camps and interesting enough almost all those that don't see the value of SOC have never driven an EV. This does not mean the present system will not work for some drivers but it is flawed and it is not optimal and adding more information is only a benefit. I can assure you, not disclosing SOC was a done deliberately by Nissan, not as an oversight.

I (the OP) do not dispute the value of SOC. Nor do I disagree with your assessment of the Leaf's nav . In fact, I'm not sure there is a dispute at all. I and others believe that a relatively low cost improvement in the nav system would greatly benefit the non-enthusiast driver like myself. And we think it is a serious failing by Nissan not to provide us with a savvy nav.

As a side note I hear the nav is not very intuitive, not sure that is true or not? I had an Acura TL at one point and I thought the nav was decent.

 

[AndyH]

I am trying to understand, please:

Are you saying that the LEAF's SOC (e-fuel) gauge bars are not accurate, are too course (8%), or are too hard to read?

If the same SOC gauge had 100 divisions and a numeric readout displayed, would that be what you are wanting?

You can easily ignore the "Range Estimate", right?

A ScanGauge II should be able to show the calculated (estimated) SOC, right?

The Leaf has current sensors - it knows exactly how much energy's left the pack and how much has returned via regen and charging. This is a very accurate direct measurement. In addition, LiMn2O4 has a 'sloped' discharge curve so one can get a quite accurate state of charge indication by measuring the second-order voltage. The car knows the state of charge.

Or, are you wanting an "amp-hours used" meter, rather than (or in addition to) the "estimated SOC" display?

Thanks for some clarification, Gary

Earlier production EVs had the ability to directly measure energy into/out of the pack, but they also did some 'predictive range estimates' based on prior driving style. The 'real' range and the 'predictive' range diverge over time. This is not unlike Windows shutting down the laptop early to 'save the battery' because it thinks the pack's empty, even know the BMS inside the battery knows all is well. The result is that while the battery is still capable of 2 hours use, Windows only lets it operate 1.5 hours. The pack isn't degrading - the 'range' estimate (intentionally conservative) is shrinking. Laptops need to have the two 'monitoring systems' synchronized once in awhile - and that restores full (or near full) operating time.

Raw pack SOC is 'ground truth' info. Beyond that we get farther away and the 'predictions/estimations' get more inaccurate.

 

[walterbays]

I was planning to start a new "suggestion" thread - but OP has already said what I was planning to write.

Knowing where we are - and where we are planning to go, the range can be calculated quite well. The car knows ...
- Exact elevation cahnges along the route
- Temperature outside & the climate setting of the car
- Various speeds on the roads along the route
- Traffic conditions
- General driving habit of the driver

With all this info, car can estimate the range as well as an experienced human could if not better.

This article from CES is the first indication I've seen that the Leaf NAV system actually takes account of elevation. http://venturebeat.com/2011/01/05/cars-connected-to-the-cloud-the-all-electric-nissan-leaf/

Nissan’s system allows drivers to search for charging stations and plot routes that will use less of the electric car’s battery (avoiding slopes, for instance),

Now I can only hope that it uses other information like traffic conditions on each alternative route, fixed load from climate control, etc. It could send me a slightly longer way, up and down a hill, to avoid a traffic jam that would consume too many kWh while running the heater, and on another day choose a different route as optimum. Or, given the goal to get me home as fast as possible with energy to spare, it could send me a way that uses more energy but saves time.

Not that I'm counting on it. I'll be happy if the NAV system is as good as Google maps, and as promised allows you to push routes from your computer to your car.