Is electric really better?

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IndyLeaf said:
AndyH said:
Lastly as a retired military officer- our kids are NOT dying to secure oil... That is a vulgar representation oversimplifying the whole world. Ever heard of terrorism? Where were you when on 911 our Trade Center Towers were attacked? Our kids over there are defending you and your way of life. Have you ever been to the mid east? I have... defending freedom...
.


I am so glad the US miltitary is over in the mid-east fighting back against those Trade Center attacks. We are going to kick those Saudi's butts.... Oh wait.... maybe not...

Iraq has the largest unexplored oil reserves on the planet. Russia and France and other countries all had contracts to develope them. Now they have all gone to US and British companies, including Haliburtan. 15 permanent military bases are being built in Iraq. It is all about oil, don't kid yourself.
 
Ain't it great that a simple question back in August 2009 about whether an electric car was really better environmentally than an ICE car has devolved into a political argument? All without any responses from the original poster. Wheee!
 
You know what Jason, you are right.

I am new here and I am sure I have insulted the retired miltary officer that I quoted. I am sorry for that and I want to apologize. I don't want to act like a troll. The officer is right in that it is a complex matter that can not be summed up in a few lines. I admire him for having the courage to go and fight for his country. I will give his opinion great value due to his first-hand experiance and I will limit my opinion to things that I am experianced in.

Regards

Peter

Yes and I believe electricity is really better.
 
Heynow999 said:
I am new here and I am sure I have insulted the retired miltary officer that I quoted.

Please go back thru and fix the quote. :) While I am retired military, IndyLeaf is the 'retired military officer' that you quoted.

Andy
 
I just want to mention the many new solar installations that are being approved and constructed in Southern California to provide cleaner solar power to the grid. Here are some: Ivanpah Mojave desert project, Imperial Solar Energy Center South, Blythe Solar Power Project, Palen Solar Power Project, Rice Solar Energy Project, Rosamond Solar. I count 19 in all at this link http://gov.ca.gov/pdf/gov/solar-workshop/2a_industry_workforce_needs.pdf.
 
KarenRei said:
Here's an example for you -- a DOE/PNL joint study:
http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Feasibility_Analysis_Part1.pdf

Their conclusions: even on our current grid, switching to EVs will reduce CO2 by 27%, increase PM, keep SOx the same, reduce NOx, and nearly eliminate VOCs and CO. Furthermore, the pollutants that are emitted will be emitted at altitude in less densely populated areas instead of ground level in populated areas, dramatically reducing their impact on human health..
Not to nit-pick your post, but I read the article cited above and it does not really say that switching to EVs will "keep SOx the same." It actually says (after mentioning the 18% increase in particulate matter emissions): "The total SOx emissions are increased at the national level by about 125%, also caused by coal-fired power plants." It does go on to say: "However, while the particulate and SOX emissions are expected to increase in total, they would be removed from the urban areas to the locations of the power plants, commonly at a considerable distance from the large urban population." There is also the possibility that once the emissions are collected to a single point source, rather than a million different tailpipes, newer techniques to reduce or eliminate particulate and SOx emissions from the power plants could be more economically and effectively applied.

TT
 
What I say is I can go farther on $1 of electric then a $1 of gas. I care lease about the co2 from the power plant bull zhit.
 
Clearly we need to produce electricity more cleanly, and the increased market for electricity produced by electric cars will create incentives to do that. But, immediately it reduces dependence on foreign oil, and reduced C)2 and pollution in places where coal is not the predominant source of electricity. Plus, particulate output at power plants is easier to control than from tail pipes. Electric cars are clearly beneficial.
 
Gonewild said:
What I say is I can go farther on $1 of electric then a $1 of gas. I care lease about the co2 from the power plant bull zhit.
Maybe you left the sarcastic smiley off this message, but at the risk of sounding patronizing or preachy, we really should care about more than the impact on our wallets, although that is a sufficient motivation for many people.

TT
 
I wanted to compare the energy usage of the Leaf to a Prius and to the "average U.S. passenger vehicle". I did some research and a little bit of calcula-mation and here's the result:

There are two categories of calculations: "fuel economy" and cost per mile, and CO2 emission per mile. (I did not attempt to quantify the carbon footprint of the manufacturing process of each car, nor the carbon footprint of each car's maintenance: battery used, oil used for lubrication, coolant use, etc.)

Fuel Economy and Cost of Operation

"Fuel economy" for the Leaf is (Edit Mar 9, 2011) based on real-world data points averaging 4.06 miles/kWh, which is 136 mpg or 0.2463 kWh/mile.

The Prius gets an average of 50 mpg. Assuming that gasoline has an energy contents of 35.1 kWh/gallon (note 2), the Prius requires 0.7 kWh per mile.

For the "average ICE (Internal Combustion Engined) car, I used data from two tables from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics:
Table 4-11: Passenger Car and Motorcycle Fuel Consumption and Travel and
Table 4-12: Other 2-Axle 4-Tire Vehicle Fuel Consumption and Travel (including "light trucks", which include vans, pickup trucks, and sport utility vehicles).
In 2008, those vehicles average 20.5 mpg.
(I did not use data from the Table 4-9: Motor Vehicle Fuel Consumption and Travel (which shows the average US vehicle getting 17.4 MPG) because I think that figure includes big commercial trucks and things like that.)
That works out to 1.7 kWh per mile.

Austin Engergy charges an average of 6.92 cents per kWh (3.55 cents per kWh for the first 500 kWh) (note 3).

Nissan Leaf: 1.66 cents/mile
Toyota Prius: 0.7 kWh/mile = 4.84 cents/mile (5.5 cents/mile given $2.75/gal gasoline)
Average U.S. passenger vehicle (2008): 1.7 kWh/mile = 11.76 cents/mile (13.4 cents/mile given $2.75/gal gasoline)

CO2 Emission

The CO2 emission calculation is a bit more long winded because I want to account for the approximately 6.5% loss in transmission of electricity (note 4).
The CO2 estimate is also pessimistic against the Leaf because the data on CO2 emission from electricity generation is from 1999.
In 1999, 50.9% of electricity was produced from coal, 19.71% from nuclear and 15.058% from natural gas.
By 2009, it was 44.456% from coal, 23.313% from natural gas and 20.225% from nuclear (note 5).
So it's reasonable to think that the current level of CO2 emission from electricity generation is lower that in 1999.

Also, not included in this calculation is CO2 emission resulting from exploration, retrieval (coal mining, oil drilling, waste gas burn-off at well head, transportation (from well to refinery, from coal mine to coal electricity plant), refining, and delivery of gasoline to pump.

In 1999, total CO2 emission by the electric power industry was 2,244,804 thousands metric tons (note 6).
The total amount of electricity generated was 3,691,073 millions kilowatts-hour.
That works out to an average of 1.34 lbs of CO2 per kWh (0.60817 kg/kWh).
Assuming 6.5% transmission losses, each kWh at my wall plug requires generation of 1.07 kWh at the source, producing 1.43314 lbs of CO2.

Since the Leaf consumes 0.24 kWh per mile (see above), it therefores is responsible for 0.34395 lbs of CO2 per mile.

One gallon of gasoline results in 19.4 lbs of CO2, calculated by molecular weights, that is under ideal conditions.
Given that, the Prius generates 0.39 lbs of CO2 (431.07g) per mile.
(Note that this does not include CO2 emission of the discovery, drilling, distillation, and transportation of gasoline.)

The average U.S. passenger vehicle (in 2008) generates 0.95 lbs CO2/mile (431.07 g).



Note 1:
Leaf's range and battery capacity.

Note 2:
Energy content of gasoline is the average from four sources: 36.6 kWh/US gal, 36.4 kWh/gal, 33.6 kWh/gal, and 33.7 kWh/gal, averaging 35.1 kWh/gal.

Note 3:
Austin Energy's rate schedule.

Note 4:
Transmission losses in transmission of electric power: 6.5%, in 2007.

Note 5:
Net Generation by Energy Source by Type of Producer.

Note 6:
Electric Power Industry CO2 Emissions and Generation Share by Fuel Type. This does not include CO2 emission of the discovery, mining, and transportation of fuel (coal, petroleum, natural gas, etc.)

Edit: text-editing error (damn vim's control-X!) on Leaf's cost-per-mile: it's 1.66 cents/mile not 0.66 cents/mile.
Edit: include caveat about omission of CO2 emission of discovery, mining, and transportation of fuel.
 
There's a show posted on youtube called "Fully Charged" about EVs, in one episode he mentions a refinery in the UK that consumes electricity equivalent to city of 250,000 people.

Over on a Tesla discussion board is a thread about the amount of power consumed in refining a gallon of gasoline where they came up with 7.5kWh/gallon. If that number is correct then the amount of power used in refining a gallon is roughly enough to power an EV for about 30 miles, around-about what a ICE travels on one gallon of gas.

Some refineries burn gas or oil rather than using electricity, and gas produces less CO2 than coal, but one could argue that if they burned the gas instead of coal in producing grid power it would work out better than refining and burning the gasoline. It seems like a good answer to the original question in this thread. But is it true? As I haven't heard this argument put forward a lot I wonder if the numbers might not be correct. It would be nice to nail down a source for the amount of power used in the refining process.
 
There's a thread on this forum, that I was reading the other day, related to your question. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=820
 
If the only focus is CO2, the CA low carbon fuel standard is pretty thorough in showing EVs are clearly superior even given coal burning power plants. See the California Low Carbon Fuel Standard on page ES20 (Table ES-8) in the pdf at this link: http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/030409lcfs_isor_vol1.pdf

As far as SOx, NOx and PM a wet scrubber on the end of a power plant will reduce them almost completely depending on the design efficiency. Yes, EVs are better and will continue to get better if they significantly penetrate the market.
 
EV is better than some transportation,but since 1/2 of all electricity is fossil fuel generated, EV's 'better' status is a ways off. Teleportation (ah la Startreck) is better, but since we're at cheep peak oil production, forget about ever seeing that day happen.
:lol:
 
hill said:
EV is better than some transportation,but since 1/2 of all electricity is fossil fuel generated, EV's 'better' status is a ways off. Teleportation (ah la Startreck) is better, but since we're at cheep peak oil production, forget about ever seeing that day happen.
:lol:
So if you drive an EV, 50% your energy is generated from fossil fuels (on average).

Versus 85-100% if you use a gasoline vehicle.

That's not better... how?
=Smidge=
 
Hill Wrote:
EV is better than some transportation,but since 1/2 of all electricity is fossil fuel generated, EV's 'better' status is a ways off. Teleportation (ah la Startreck) is better, but since we're at cheep peak oil production, forget about ever seeing that day happen.

Maybe he missed the thread that showed about 45% of people on this forum will be charging with photovoltaic, and a significant other percentage paying their utility (if it isn't already provided) for renewable energy. Also, the cost per watt of PV continues to drop. :p
 
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